Definition of Love

Hi Slim, I thought this deserved a response:

"Like fingertips lightly tracing the outline of the Nipple, or the soft lower parts of the belly, the nape of the neck, or nibbling the lobe of the ear, lightly working your lips to theirs for a play of the tongue, not lingering too long away from all other sensitive areas of the body and spirit you Passionately Join, light kisses placed carefully yet recklessly in a teasing, touching dance, not like a fiddle but more like a fine Violin, the Musician makes music that touches the deep senses of places yet discovered...till rockets blast off, bells and whistles sound and the dizzy feeling takes control, and you want not the end, but the duration of the feeling..like a rollercoaster changes ways unexpectedly, or the feeling of fast acceleration, Making Love is expectant of yet to be, a Drug but without a hangover is a continued, controlled elation. "

"Hands sliding up the chest, breasts pressing against the chest, hands caressing the breadth and strength of the shoulders, feeling the muscles of the arms, stroking the jawline. Hot. sweet, kisses on the lips, the neck, the chest, the stomach. Hands cariessing the thigh muscles. Licking , slowly, gently. Hovering, breathing. Hands beneath the buttocks, sucking, moving, breasts pressing, carressing, until the loved one loses control. "

Just the other side of the story.

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Riomacloud:

The idea of 'Platonic love' as propounded in the modern press has absolutely nothing to do with Plato.

Oooh! You're read Heine and Goethe and Sacher-Masoch. Sweetness - romanticism is not studied enough.

Romanticism was a strange movement, a cure that became a sickness.

Damnit Rio, you make me grin by bringing up one of my favorite movements and now you're getting all judgemental.

Romantic love is caused by a temporary imbalence in the way our brains process dopamine and (perhaps serotonin? Nobody's quite sure yet). Unfortunately, the virulence of this emotional state causes people to get very, very silly about it.

Add the fact that most moderns have nothing to do but get silly over trivial things, and you have our current culture.

The Romantics did not place undue emphasis on love, though. Romanticism origionally focused on vitality and sensualism rather than decay (not to moralize focusing on decay) and Romanticism CERTAINLY is not responsible for the John Gray sort of tripe that is currently popular. To associate Romanticism with "being romantic" is to do a grave disservice to Romanticism.

slim and ele, this forum is dedicated to philosophy, not cybersex (unless you wish to discuss the philosophical implications of cybersex). If you wish to type such exchanges about "Hands cariessing the thigh muscles", please IM each other.

Besides, you almost made me puke.

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"Thanks for the Compliment ele... I look upon Passion and love as a stepping stone to Bliss, But Being Feverishly Passionate can lead to Confinement and unhappiness in some aspects. In the Case of Jealousy a feverously Passionate person can confine and destroy anothers Bliss .. I'm Not a jealous person toward My Romatic Intrest having outgrown the insecure stage long ago! Absolute trust is essentual in each others growth and leads to a deeper Love with apprechiation for the freedom to be an allowed individual. I cannot stand to be confined and not trusted, nor Do I thinks its fair to hobble my partners movements and any career achievements.. To be a successful team and have the contentment of one, I believe the inner growth of each other can directly lead success for Both. To be one in Spirit is possible from great distance I think!"

I understand the theory and see what you mean, but I am by nature jealous. I think jealousy plays a role in bonding securely two people actually and at least for me, it is a part of any love relationship that i think is a natural one and should be accepted. I guess your comment about insecurity may apply to me, but i think fundamentally i am an insecure type person. My husband says i reminded him of that song, "Like a candle in the wind".
I did once have a boyfriend whom i did feel compelled to accept he may have other relationships, but this was because of his nature at the time. It seemed to be essential to his character and spirit, that i loved, that i didnt bind him. That was many years ago before I married. I agree sharing of spirit can be across great distances, and in a way i feel i still share the spirit of that earlier boyfriend and anyone whom i have loved, whether in a male-fmale sense or evn in a family sense, after relatives have died.

"ele, the quite kind of Love you speak of is the most Enduring type and also the most Peaceful if it is secure. In my above posts I wasn't touting a Frantic type of Love.. Those can be sressful and lead to great differences that can destroy what one seeks to protect, thus losing trust and eventually Killing a Beautiful Dream unintentional.. Once gone it is likely gone for good for one or the other. I detest harsh words in anger or aggravation that were not maybe not meant yet cannot be recalled."

I think if you love then much can be recalled and much can be foirgiven. I also hate anger and one of the early things in my relationship with my husband we established was that he frightened me when he was verbally aggressive and he started to do this much less. I think it was a good communication thing anyway for him and me as it meant we both got to talk about the issue rather than me being scared and upset and him being aggressive.

" I think the trick involes being acutely aware of the others wishes, wants and needs.. Many people try to rekindle a Flame of Love they thoughtlessly smothered with Selfish, petty paybacks and most always it was beyond repair yesterday, and it is sad that they realized too late. One Needs to count blessing everyday and say "I love you" often .. I can't ever imagine it would get old hearing it or be overdone. It gives the comfy feel. "

I agree that a relationship needs to be valued and difficulties worked through and an awareness of or at least a willingness to care about the other's needs are important.

Xev, the bit you objected to was just a response to the little bit slim put into his post describing how one responds with passion and how that relates to sex and how consideration of the other's needs and joy is important in true love. I am sorry if you found it offensive.

 

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The Joy of love, is to be loved.......or love is a hypocrite emotion witch i hate with all my heart, yet, need it to survive in this world.....see what i mean......

Love can mend your life of love can break your heart-Sting

 

If by judgemental you mean willing to discriminate between two obviously different phenomena, then paint me judgemental. I find it hard to believe that I'm the only one who sees the difference between the unhealthy deep down need for someone and the love that can develop between two people over time. Maybe I came on too strong about the nature of passionate love, and a little too negative, but if you look at your lover and the only thing you hear is 70's porno music, then you have a problem.

I don't know who that is to, but if it's to me, I think you might want to skim my earlier posts again. Romanticism was focused on vitality and sensualism in a completely physical way. In fact, to such a degree that I'd imagine that a lot of Romantics would agree that there is nothing but the tangible. I mean, they're pretty obvious about the things they don't like (ie the theme of Frankenstein AND Dr Jekyll is the same. Science=bad.). If you want to read a suprisingly "good" (in the philosophical sense) book by a godawful writer, I'd suggest reading Bram Stoker's Dracula with your mind on this very topic. (in fact, if you're interested in an analysis of Vampirism as an example of Passionate love, I have a paper available. here

I second that.

You think that mistrust is a natural part of a loving relationship? Jealousy bonds two people? ele, that is a good topic for quiet meditation some day in the future. How do you love someone you openly admit you don't trust?

 

Riomacloud:

How do you judge "health" in a sick society?

As for "unhealthy deep down need", it is impossible to need another person. Need is a choice, freely undertaken.

Are you suggesting that there is something besides the physical universe?

Nothing but the physical, yes, many would agree. However, the lure of the supernatural was strong for the Romantics.

Not precisely. First, you are looking at Romanticism in terms of Mary Shelley and Bram Stoker? (I'd class Stoker more with the Victorians) This seems a skewed sample. Try Blake, Coleridge, Goethe and Shelley.

Romanticism was focused on the regeneration of life in an age increasingly dominated by machines. To this end - passion, rather than bourgoise contentment. To this end, naturalism rather than the steady encroachment of machines and men onto the environment. To this end, the individual rather than the herd.

To your article, you seem to have only read 'Interview' and not the following books. (Correct me if I err)
Lestat is not as Louis initially portrays him. Louis, you must remember, is somewhat weak and very, very morally torn by his nature as a vampire. He often recriminates upon the most available object to blame - Lestat.

Nor do I think Ms. Rice's point is to uphold the vampire as a symbol of passionate life. Rather, her vampires are interesting more because they are not simply over-passionate humans.

You love someone you openly admit that you don't trust. It is that easy.

Society has become so hedonistic and so focused on its small pleasures that it would avoid any pain, no matter what the consequences of that avoidence entail.

 

Well, Flipp me a fish! When I read that I was emotinally deterred for a couple of seconds, then I thought I should perhaps remind or postulate on the very same observations or "gist" of this Forum.
..I do not take offense to your "warning" or Advice" having been at this site for long enough to observe you, Xev, as a Highly complex and provocative person with a thought provoking attitude and outlook that is refreshing at times, peacefull and times and at others so Damn analytical it is horrifying to read and not have a Librairy on hand. I know you are the Mod on this thread, so you can Delete me, Bump me, or Kiss my ass, or do all three, I would hope that you kiss my ass first with the loving way ele describes, but that is highly unlikely. You are free to do as you wish!

.....OR, we can continue this thread with some very "Human" observations about the original posters intent .

...If you will note my Offending post that kicked this thread into its Quandrious state started with me Pre-Applogizing if It sounded crude, not wanting to look like a pervert or a lush, But the Thread needed Some "Very Human" input into a Very Human Subject, Which is... EVERYBODY's Definition of Love! The next post I made stated that I hoped I Hadn't offended anyone. I posted the Foreplay text One time only, not wanting to, or intending to hij-jack this thread and turn it into a "Cybersex" thread.

...ele, whom I think is very "Human", Sweet, and observative, ALSO has added, and IS still a member of Said Humans who, according to Rio is thinking Wrong? about a "Human" fallacy, again... according to Rio! ..ele has 20 years under her belt of living with the same husband, probably in and out of Love at times, and maybe knows MORE than You Me or Rio about ..."Her Definition of Love"

.... To Define what Love is, you "Should" first ask what Love Does and what leads to the illness and Sad state of Disrepair or repair..I think! Needless to say, "Humans" reponded with some very curious defensive and offensive posts and I think what we posted was appropriate, unless of Course you wish to stick your head in the sand and hinder the search for the answer to where "People" and love figure in in with oppressive and Smug and Unflexible Book-Descriptive Ideas (Rio) ..."Everybody's Definition of Love" is an inner sanctuary exclusive to them.. Yet the Joy, Pain, anger and flood of emotions it brings are universal.

My Question is.. Why Ask if you aren't willing to discover? Discovering entails a Balanced outlook and approach. Its not who is better edcucated or with a large array of books to research, OR who knows bigger Words!

Asking a question of a group of people from varying locations and family will bring several responses. If you ask something personal, I would think all would BE Prepared For a Personal Response. Moderating influx of That is akin to censorship.

I think it could open up a can of worms, or it could bring a more enlightend wisdom.

This is an Example of Off Topic....


Not precisely. First, you are looking at Romanticism in terms of Mary Shelley and Bram Stoker? (I'd class Stoker more with the Victorians) This seems a skewed sample. Try Blake, Coleridge, Goethe and Shelley.

Romanticism was focused on the regeneration of life in an age increasingly dominated by machines. To this end - passion, rather than bourgoise contentment. To this end, naturalism rather than the steady encroachment of machines and men onto the environment. To this end, the individual rather than the herd.

To your article, you seem to have only read 'Interview' and not the following books. (Correct me if I err)
Lestat is not as Louis initially portrays him. Louis, you must remember, is somewhat weak and very, very morally torn by his nature as a vampire. He often recriminates upon the most available object to blame - Lestat.



"I don't know who that is to, but if it's to me, I think you might want to skim my earlier posts again. Romanticism was focused on vitality and sensualism in a completely physical way. In fact, to such a degree that I'd imagine that a lot of Romantics would agree that there is nothing but the tangible. I mean, they're pretty obvious about the things they don't like (ie the theme of Frankenstein AND Dr Jekyll is the same. Science=bad.). If you want to read a suprisingly "good" (in the philosophical sense) book by a godawful writer, I'd suggest reading Bram Stoker's Dracula with your mind on this very topic. (in fact, if you're interested in an analysis of Vampirism as an example of Passionate love, I have a paper available. here "
ssm


quote:
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slim and ele, this forum is dedicated to philosophy
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I second that.

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... lol.. A double standard.. I Have no idea what you two are speaking of, It deals with History in the Past and is Boring as Hell to most people, not ot mention it never mentions love. If you two want to speak exclusivly about things over other peopls heads, perhaps you should PM each other? Yet you can castigate some for describing an act that has the word Love in it, and .. Who and WHAT does Romanticism , vampirism, Classic movements and Dracula have to do With "Your Description of Love"



Lovemaking is tied to Love, Believe it or not. Passion is also a Human Trait that has marked the World for generations. One without the other is Half of Nothing. Both make a whole. If Talking about it makes you sick, Id say you can't be too well when you avoid it, and ANYONE who wishes to annalize love and NOT Suffer through a little Poetry needs to study something that Doesn't require feelings. Think of Farm Tractors or something. ... the Duck Analogy was Funny..lol.. NOOO Clue Dude! An open mind is a Gift...

Soo, It wasn't Good For Both of You Too? Rio... Dude...Lose the Holier than Thou B/S.. Nobody is Amazed Yet.. Like you.


"Fuck authority, fuck authority
Kill the president and seniority
Fuck authority, fuck authority
Lets murder a society"

~~~~~~~~~~~~Slim~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

slim:
I'll reiterate that this forum is dedicated to philosophy, not cybersex and not analysis of relationships (although these two might have philosophical implications).
If you have issue with this, you are free to fuck off and/or to complain to the admin.

As for censorship, that's my job. I censor that which is not conducive to rational, productive discussion. Further contentless posts will be deleted.

 

“...ele, whom I think is very "Human", Sweet, and observative, ALSO has added, and IS still a member of Said Humans who, according to Rio is thinking Wrong? about a "Human" fallacy, again... according to Rio! ..ele has 20 years under her belt of living with the same husband, probably in and out of Love at times, and maybe knows MORE than You Me or Rio about ..."Her Definition of Love"”

Thanks Slim. Very nice of you.


“Romanticism was focused on the regeneration of life in an age increasingly dominated by machines. To this end - passion, rather than bourgoise contentment. To this end, naturalism rather than the steady encroachment of machines and men onto the environment. To this end, the individual rather than the herd. “

I agree totally with your statement of what Romanticism as a movement was about Slim.. When I first became a Romantic was years ago, in school in poetry class. I loved Byron, Wordsworth, Shelley(Percy Bysshe), and liked Keats . I think it also had not just a great respect for nature, but truth, beauty and reality and humanity as real people.

I also think that it is not unusual for a romantic definition of love to include treference to passion and to the physical expression of a spiritual love. I think that is what Slim and i both posted about. It was not “lust” or “self-appeasement” type posting, it was demonstrating what a man and a woman can do for each other to physically express their spiritual valuation of the other person and their joy in and appreciation of the other person by trying to create the person’s joy and pleasure physically andgive them delight and fulfillment and happiness and peace and contentment.

There are some people by the way, for whom love is purely a chemical reaction, they would say that love is lust. I dod not ascribe to this view, but i have heard it expressed. I feel these people may as well say love doesn’t exist.

There are others for who it is only a social relationship, and has to do with similar backgrounds and compatibility. I dont dismiss htis entirely, but it is also not what love is.

I note that someone else, riomacleod i think, first raised the possibility that Slim was talking about sex when he talked about passionate love. I think Slim’s resposne was to demonstarte he was not, he demonstarted what having passion for another person may involve, in a way that was loving i thought.

I think both Slim and I agree that ideally the best love combines passion for the other person and the kind of quiet love we all agree is important. That inner certainty and instinct towards the other person that seems somehow to relate to things beyond the self, like God or some other form of naturall quiet belonging, not sexually driven by still in a way instinct driven. What i have with my husband encompasses the quiet kind of love where we feel we belong together in some way. It also involves some fairly passionate sex. We also share some attitudes and understandings. I suppose i feel where we are not quite so compatible is in the area of shared imagination, creativity and mentality.

In life, we often do not have the ideal. We compromise and so it is in relationships too i think. We choose someone we can happily live with and hopefully be faithful to, for we regard thenm enough that we would not hurt them by choice, and we have something worthwhile rather than nothing. But i think a good man is indeed hard to find. And i think my husband is a good man. And i love him. And i love absolutely my children.

Regarding jealousy riomacleod, it is not amatter of not trusting my husband that makes me feel jealousy. It is natural for me to feel jealousy. I vale my relationship with him, and i fear losing it. He is daily in situations where he meets other people and has longterm relationships with them at work. I know that relationships can deepen and trun to love or sex. It makes sense to fear and worry, to me. Maybe it is just becaus ei am the way i am. I am insecure. I need reassurance. I am loved. I find it hard to believe my husband loves me, as as i have experienced it, noone else ever has. (except my kids i guess). I find it hard to understand and at times i find it hard to believe as i can not see it in his actions.

As I see it. If i was to have a relationship with you, and you demanded of me that i was not jealous, i would think that would be afalse basis for the re;lationship. It wouldn’t be true. I ythink it is preferable to deal with the facts and live with the truth. I susupect you can not fporm a good relationship with someone unless you can accept them as they are at the start.


hey slim, i liked your comment to xev re f..ing off. the other day in class a yr 9 boy told me to f..off when i asked him to spell something. I looked around the class, adn said sorry, i cnat, there doesnt seem to be a suitable partner. next time i sasked him to spell a word he said the same thing. i said, what again? Already? I dont think i'm ready again yet. The third time i asked him to spell a word, he said. Okauy, i'll have a go miss. give me an easy one.

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Thats Funny!.. Children are another Topic that is difficult to explain. Those Little Humans come up with some very provacative Questions at times and they seem to have Flashes of Brilliance. They also require a Lot of Love, Patience and understanding at times when you feel Anything But! Raising mine Taught me the value of Patience and Longsuffering, and If it were not for my Love of them, I think I would have run away from Home years ago. I think I did my best, or the best I knew anyway! I lost the Instructions and Box they came in when they were New. Each one has their own personal Default switch that must be found in order to continue Teaching them. I have to treat each one differently and "Plug In" mentally, and also watch their mood swings for signs of Depression, Confusion or Anger. I think Grownups also have that, and in a Marraige or Relationship it must be reset at times so the inner Doors of Thought will Remain open. One thing that is always consistant about the Human mind is that it is In-consistant in Growth, and Apathy or Selfishness can allow Mental Monsters to encroach in Any Relationship, be it Parental or Spouseual. I always try to Probe my Loved ones intellectually with suggestions and Questions that do not arouse Anger or Frustration. Kind words can unlock Closed Doors.

...Do you Teach a Class?

 

Oh, thought i said i taught before. Yes, I teach casual in high schools. I only work 9-2.30 or so so i can pick my own kids up from school. My teaching areas are english and socail science, but i very often teach different subject areas.

 

I think i missed responding to this post earlier Slim. Sorry.

“The Power of Two Spirits working together in Unison, can be awesome.. I Believe all things are possible at some point in time. To have ones own Cheering Section in a mate, one who relates without words, who can speak wisely for you in your absence, who knows what makes you tick.. I think it can happen, if not in this life, maybe another one. I don't need or want just a SpaceFiller......I'll wait for the one..”

very nice sentiment but may mean the waiter ends up lonely when other action could have meant many years not quite so lonely?

“This Rose

A fresh new Rose, Just picked from the Best,
I give it to you, I've accepted the Quest..
To Love you and Keep you, til Death do us part,
I give you my Love, I give you my Heart..
With a strong Hand to Hold and a shoulder to stay.
I give you my Life and I'll Love you always..
Its a Delicate thing now, the soft petals that glow,
take hold of it Gently, watch after this Rose..”
Edited by slim on 08-27-03 at 03:26 PM”

I very much like this poem Slim. I understand how scary it is to offer your love to someone. One of the first images i used in one of the early scripts i wrote was someone crushing a flower underfoot. It was to emphasies their character and symbolize the way they were crushing the spirit from one of the other characters. I think if i recall it had a lot to do with social and family repression of individuality and hope. I was sponsored to attend a writing conference on the basis of that script.

The earliest script I wrote involved a weird young philosophizing girl and many other characters who I perceived as kinda fragments of her. It had form i gave it through setting it to music i related to that i had heard. It was a school based thing. I did the lighting for it and directed it. It had to do i guess with differences between and within people and being pulled in many directions and life and death.

Much alter i wrote a script re a young man falling in love with an older woman, meeting her in a bar. It was kinda mannerist and blackly humourous but very loving and was about individduality and freedom. It was written against the id card proposal of the time, and the “upper classes” and “pretentiousness” and ‘work place conformity and mealy mouthedness and the advertising industry and family pushing. The young man is stunned by her beauty as if in an ad or other thing, but in acting in this stereotypical way he escapes the dominance of his family and family job which are also stereotypical, and kind of finds himself, in his success by his own methods in the advertising business, but does he really? This receeived a professional workshop but due to political sesibility of the director to the work- i think she thought i was right wing- she didnt understand it- it was not taken further

I’ve also written what was meant to be a radio play- my first heavily dialogue based play, which oi later changed to be suitable for stage. It achieved neaqr performance twice. Once missed out on a director for radio, and once the cast became unavailable. It was a kinda whodunnit, with a diamond in the rough type characte, and a school girl who is killed and who symbolised what happened to the Whitlam government.

I wrote a novel more recently- last couple of years, intended for teenagers. You can see it at www.books.adminsoftware.net, . The book has Cherub and Angelino as main characters- think i called it cherub and angelino are dead. It is about the harsh life faced by some teenagers and the lack of community support for them an why they give up on life and how they get there. I’d be interested in any ffedback. So far from publishers- i only sent it to one, i have back that it is good but not the type of thing they need new stuff in, and encouragement to show them what i am working on now, which is amore fantasy- but with nme always and =edge of reality in there- book for younger kids- say about 10.

I think wiriting is something i have a love and passion for and even writing in to forums, which is easy and guarantees and audience is done through this love of words and expression and reality, I think Xev this also in a way answers why I wrote what i did earleir that you objected to. I found it a writing challenge to do so. And it was an appropriate written response to what went before.

 

ele wrote: "very nice sentiment but may mean the waiter ends up lonely when other action could have meant many years not quite so lonely?"


..I've had the Sad Experience of Being with a Mate Before and Out of Loyalty and a Comitment I stayed in the Relationship, yet it was lacking many things. I've Had a couple of those it seems and During those entrapments I would Experience a casual Brief Encounter with another Woman who would Rattle and shake my Entire World with her Eyes and Motions, Our Spirits Touched and we Both felt the Same, and it would leave me Yearning and Dreaming of another encounter with Her. Those Lost Chances of What I percieved to potentually be My Soulmate Left me even Lonlier than Being Alone Now. If and When That Happens again, I will be free to Act upon those Feelings. Just having a warm Body next to you does not mean you won't be Lonely. If the Heart were so simple and True Love did not Figure in, Then with all the Warm Bodies there are in this world Lonliness would be just a word. Anyone Warm Blooded Could Be a Space Filler. I'm not that Simple.. Somtimes I wish I were! Its like a Curse to look at a sea of Faces, many smiling, yet None Know You for You and need you for them in Body And Spirit. Like a Treasure Chest full of Pearls inside is to some just an Ugly old Box outside.


ele, You do have a Full life it seems, with all you Do! Hopefully your Break is just around the Corner for your Writing talents. Good Luck! It seems many People are Waiting to be Discovered. I have never written anything to sell, and have Lost So many Poems and other articles over the Years. The Computer has opened up a whole new world for me and I'm Enjoying the Writing and learning Imensely.. Now If I can Just Remember how to Spell. Some Words Just Do not Look correct even if they are.. So I jump to my Dictionary Quite Often. My Biggest Problem is my Fingers getting all tangled up, so I jumble words sometimes.