ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE: Although there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian in support of it, the Trinity is considered the most important doctrine for the most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom. The philosophy states that the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is split up into three different persons. It states: the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is god. The philosophy also states that the three persons/three gods are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a single "Godhead." Interestingly, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century AD, while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate. 1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! 2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! 3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION: 1. If you have scriptures that you believe are talking trinity, do not quote more than four (4) scriptural examples at a time. Quote the verses and BRIEFLY explain to the forum why you believe they support Trinity. 2. Why is it that trinity is found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance, as noted by two of the above examples, there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human. 3. If the Trinity is a Bible teaching, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity? 4. How is it that the Trinity teaching did not become official "Christian" teaching until more than 300 years after the resurrected Jesus-Christ returned to heavenly life, and only after the Christianized Romans (who later called themselves Roman Catholics) copied the philosophy from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven? 5. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings? NOTE TO THE MODERATORS: I am not sure what you consider spam, but I have debated this topic at other websites. I trust this does not violate your forum rules? I debate the topics wherever I post them, and that is debate as in: "I respond directly to what others specifically state if their comments are on topic." Needless to say, this is not SPAM. By definition, spam is the posting of something with no intention of responding to the expressions of others.
As a Jehovah Witness you don't believe in the trinity. It's interesting that you point out all of the prior religions that have stories similar to the Bible. The idea is that you are showing that the trinity isn't real and was just "borrowed" from earlier religions. However, all of the other parts of the Bible that you do believe in were also borrowed from those same sources.
Why would it matter particularly if trinitary constructions existed prior to Christian Trinitarianism? Is there a problem if they weren't the first to 'invent' the entire framework themselves? And if they were, what would it prove? Is the only kind of good god-concept a new god-concept?
Well, I know they claim they're the real deal, but I don't see how that claim can be made on the basis of Trinitarianism explicitly. Let's take it the other way around: ok, so you have a Triune god. And? What greater claim does that give you? Why should God be Triune? Or not Triune. More commonly, though, it's criticized based on this Trinitarian aspect.
All Christian religions adopted some pagan beliefs and symbols. Even the Christian holidays are connected to paganism. So are things like wedding rings, and frankly, wedding ceremonies themselves, for example. So I fail to understand the whole point of this thread.
This is not a question. Why do you open up "questions for discussion" with a non-question? Why do you equate pagan to false? Why are you dismissing all other religions as false? Since you can not show that your religion is true, and is merely self-proclaimed as such, it is rather insulting to practitioners of other religions to refer to theirs as "false". Please at least be more courteous if not tolerant. I understand that it was introduced as a means to bring together the various notions that had developed in the 300 or so years since the one known as Jesus supposedly existed and died in the manner written in the Gospels. In order to bring the multitude of ideas and beliefs back to a central agreement, Emperor Constantine convened a council. One of the things to emerge was the Trinity, held up as an explanation that brought various notions together concerning the nature of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit etc. I do not think "Trinity" is found in any versions of the Bible. "Godhead" is found maybe 3 times in the KJV, but not at all in some other versions. All I see here, though, is an attempt to cherry-pick the interpretations of the Bible that suit your purposes. Who is to say that, in divinely inspiring the writing of the Bible, as is held by those who deem it Scripture, God did not have it written in such a way that the notion and understanding of the Trinity would fall out from the need to align the differing beliefs immediately after the time of his son? Or do you expect everything to be written explicitly? And if so, why would you reinterpret what is written to suit you and not take it literally?
Yes, but they don't do it on any particular descriptive basis. They simply make a claim of being "true" whereas the others are "not true". To put it another way: they don't necessarily discard the qualities ascribed to other deities, if it's something that their deity can have. Take for instance, turning water into wine. A Christian would simply assert that "yeah, you say that your Dionysos does that, but our Jesus actually did." They're not discarding "turning water into wine" just because its present in the myths of other gods. The "three gods in one" thing follows the same suit.
They do tend to use the concept of exceptionalism. There's is the only religion with a "historical" basis, theirs is the only one preaching "peace"...and other claims.
Even though that's patently untrue. Islam also does this, so does Buddhism. New religious movements certainly do. And in Christianity's own origin period, Hellenistic mystery cults also claimed to be based on historical figures. Mithras and Orpheus in particular. And those figures have just as much historical evidence as Jesus of Nazareth. I don't think that mainstream Christianity denies that these religions exist(ed). They just assert that the others are (mostly) untrue.
I think if they more take up a specific figure and lay claim to it that one could level the charge that they were a bit more 'false'. Or at least, that's another of the general criticisms laid against Christianity. However, I don't recall it ever being laid against Islam, although it seems incredibly prone to it.
And of course "Christianity" itself is not a monolith. It's just that, since Trinitarianism is one of its oldest doctrines, it persists as the doxology of most Christians. And of course Catholics are the largest denomination and they of course are Trinitarians. The arguments used tend to forget the history of syncretism. For example, suppose we were to dedicate this thread to discrediting Nestorianism (early 4th c.) Their doctrine almost follows logically from the complaints raised in the OP: just as one God can not coexist as three parts of a Trinity, Jesus himself cannot coexist as a human and demigod; thus Jesus must have two natures just as Yahweh has three. The Nestorians were banished into the lands where Islam later arose. They obviously fertilized those lands with all the JudeoChristian traditions that Islam absorbed. I think that once we establish that Christianity was founded in a primordial soup of myth, legend and fable, then as it falls, Nestorianism goes with it. And as falls Nestorianism, so falls Islam. And this thought just came to mind: the chronic enmity between Islam and Judaism/Christianity parallels the Primitivist/Fundamentalist enmity against Catholicism: namely, they are expressing hatred against the religion(s) which produced the first principles they hold sacred. There are all kinds of absurdities in religion, but this is one of the most bizarre forms.
Quite so. I put your last comment first - the criticisms being leveled at one form of Jehovan faith or another here are those of the eternal in-fighting between those groups: close enough to allege the other is not wearing clean underwear, and close enough to draw daggers about. It is two blind men fighting about the search for a black cat in a coalhouse at midnight - and one of them insists that it must be wearing a collar. I'm all for people believing whatever they like, so long as it's not harmful, but they war for their own self-assurance and they wish us to take up a weapon.
I forgot to address this point when I last replied here. Triad of gods =/= trinitarianism. Three deities associated with each other are still three separate deities, even if they operate under a collective name. Trinitarian belief is explicitly stated that one deity expresses itself in three forms or personages. In conflating them, you are making a huge error in perceiving these concepts through your biased lens rather than looking at it as it was originally conceived.
Alter2Ego: From your Post #1 Did you ever read about Ra? He was the Egyptian sun god. I do not remember reading about Horus. I assume you are correct in stating that he/she/it is an Egyptian god. His believers originated cheers & cheerleading. BTW: I think the Egyptians had more gods than Isis, Osiris, Ra, & Horus.
