DC protest-01/06/2021

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by sculptor, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member


    Trump has exploited republicans for four years. He's told them "none of this is your fault! It's the democrats, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the socialists, BLM, Antifa. It's Hillary Clinton and George Soros and the UN and a pizza place in DC. It's vaccines giving you autism and the lying media not telling you about a miracle cure I found for COVID. It's the evil scientists who just want to take away your SUV, your double cheeseburger and your cigarettes. Your failures are not your fault! Your illnesses are not your fault! Just vote for me and I will destroy all these other groups that are keeping you down, and your lives will become better." He's collected a motley assortment of racists, xenophobes, easily misled political activists, anti-vaxxers and far right wing extremists and given them a target.

    Yesterday we saw the ultimate result of that.
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  3. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Whatever their motivations, it is abundantly clear that the insurrectionists/terrorists are not, by any means whatsoever, outliers--they are your standard, average Republicans. Trump=Republican.

    (Emphasis mine.)

    Yet, unfortunately, Joe Biden does not seem to understand this:
    Hard to say whether Biden actually believes this, or was simply at a loss as to how to respond, but it's deeply unsettling nonetheless.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  5. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

    The thing about that "great report" is that it doesn't present a valid argument. It suffers from two major flaws: That later counted vote came from the same pool of voters as the earlier counted votes, and the elections in the four states were totally independent of each other.
    In the first case, the later counted vote were mail in votes, which even in a normal election tend to lean Democratic. Plus, you had one camp (Trump) telling his voters not trust mail in voting and vote in person, while the other camp encouraged mail in voting. So it was not at all surprising that a the later vote count heavily favored Biden.
    In the case. It was the same candidates, running in the same election, and under the same pandemic conditions. You can't treat the different state's elections as being independent events.
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  7. mathman Valued Senior Member

    A major difference between this riot and the others cited was that this one was instigated by the president of the United States, not your ordinary rabble rouser.
  8. Bells Staff Member

    I don't think he gave them a target.

    They had their target pegged for a long time.

    Trump simply told them it was okay to attack their target(s), because they are the enemy. They are his enemy.

    One of the most telling things about the whole election fraud spiel was that Trump was attacking the electoral system not because it was fraudulent as much as it was somehow fraudulent against him.

    If a ballot is fraudulent, if a ballot is fake, or extra ballot if one could describe it that way, then anyone voted for down ticket on those fake ballots would also be a fraudulent result.

    But not once did any of their lawsuit seek to dismiss the results down ticket.

    It was only and all about Trump. Notice he does not say the GOP won the election in a landslide. He says "I won in a landslide"..

    So when he told them to go to the Capitol, they went, because he gave them permission to attack them.

    Trump has spent years feeding that hatred. He knew their target. He just used his podium to tell them it was now okay to fight, because their common enemy had gone against him.
  9. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Yes, it is. It was not that many years ago I was completely surprised to read that a lot of Americans thought that there will be a new civil war coming. Now it is a possibility everybody talks about.

    Russian observers have named the whole process the "Ukrainization of the US". That was not about civil war, but about the increasing insanity of the politicians. But it can be applied to civil war too, the situation was similar. I was in the Ukraine two years before that civil war, and there was no indication about that coming war. Except one guy we played soccer with who hated me because I'm German, thus, Nazi. I have tried to explain him I'm not at all Nazi, he didn't believe. A posteriori, with good reason. Those Germans at that time in the Ukraine were often green or otherwise mainstream activists who supported the Bandera fascists. I would never have guessed that two years later there will be a civil war. I have talked at that time with politically interested people about politics, there was no hint.
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

    And his lawyer, and his family. And his defense secretary told the National Guard to stand down to allow them greater freedom to loot, vandalize and murder.
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  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Some broken windows at bus stops, a trashed limo (by persons unidentified - in many such "riots" that kind of incident was the work of agents provocateur).
    No organized assault on any one or any thing. No murders, no bombs, no zip ties.
    Redress of grievances. Peaceful assembly and protest of bad doings.
    Real ones - not lies and inciting bullshit from the President, lies and inciting bullshit from the mass media.
    Actual, physically real vote suppression and evidence of Republican electoral fraud, for example. Actual denial and blockade of agreed marching and protest routes, by Republican dominated police opposed to complaints of police violence. Violence perpetrated by those police, who were prepared in advance and deployed by the hundreds to beat up on unarmed and nonviolent marchers.

    Are you claiming equivalence? Seriously? As an adult man you can't tell the difference between a coordinated violent assault on the Capitol building during a major vote count to decide the Presidency and a street march by almost entirely nonviolent paraders in protest of the explicitly announced future consequences of an already accepted election?
    - - -
    Not really. They were all of a kind - some more calculating than others, some better prepared, but none in serious disagreement with any other. The ones who came to take Congress members hostage, trash certain offices, smear their feces all over the place, and set off bombs, for example, were pretty much aligned with the ones who just came to break windows and assault liberals and wave the Confederate flag victoriously in the Union's capitol building. Their "ideas" all came from the same tribal hairdresser.
    If that isn't enough. consider the differences in law enforcement and police behavior.
    You are missing a key word in your description, btw - and it's significant: it opens the door for the "bothsides" bs.
    That word is "Republican". You can say "Trump voter" if you prefer - it amounts to the same thing.
    The deep problem - singular - is the rise of fascism and its takeover of one of the two major political Parties. The deep division is between that Party's voting base and everyone else - everyone else, Partisan or whatever.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You didn't know what the Russians were up to.
    You still don't.
    "Color revolution" only exists where Russians identify it for you.
  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    The problem is that it is not Trump alone who feeds hatred. Reading this forum I see a lot of people feeding hatred too - against Trump as well as any Trump supporters.
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    No hint? I've lived in the bible belt my entire life. (Over 60 years so far.) There has ALWAYS been talk of a second civil war. It's like whack-a-mole.

    In my high school days (1970s) I was invited to join the DeMolays - a youth group associated with the Masons. The racism in that group was not hidden. I didn't hang around long enough to determine if it was embedded in the organization, or just that group of people.

    I knew kids who spoke with pride about knowing where their parents and grandparents Klan robes were kept.

    It's not new, and it's not a surprise.
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Rush Limbaugh did that, in the early 90s. The beneficiaries gave him an award at their yearly convention: "Majority Maker". https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...y-maker/e4f879c5-a0d2-43b8-ae56-9e24eeb82b62/
    Limbaugh's target was most often Hilary Clinton. Sound familiar?

    All Trump did was take over a fascist movement that had already taken over the Republican Party - he was a near-perfect fit for the role of fascist demagogue (too bad he didn't have his father buy him a stint in W's Texas Air National Guard or something like it - some rich kid's haven from the combat military, which could have given him the military connections fascist demagogues find valuable for reasons easily visible in this botched coup).

    Meanwhile, the latest manifestation of what the few and sparse media reps of what is by objective measurement the plurality ideology in America (left libertarian) have been reporting manifestations of for decades now:
    (The classic definition referenced is a teenager who murders their parents and asks for clemency in court on the grounds they are an orphan.)
    1) Not only Trump, but the behavior of the entire body of Republican politicians and media operatives, as well as a majority of the Republican voting base, feeds hatred. We know that because they brag about it, loudly and continually. They are proud of their ability to frustrate decency and reason, to harm the innocent and bully the weak, injuring the vulnerable to the point of driving the decent and reasonable to emotional reaction.
    2) That would not be a problem anyway - Fascist demagogues are often hated by their victims legitimately, and simple reporting of factual reality and recorded event feeds that hatred. Like other mean, ignorant, and violent, people they are hateful people - what can one say? The problems arise when reality based pundits and adults take care to moderate their reports and excuse such evil in an attempt to appease a fascist movement. Fascist movements cannot be appeased.
    3) No, you don't.
    Like your fellow kool-aid drinkers here (the rightwing corporate authoritarians posting under the bothsides cover, say) you are unable to distinguish written manifestations of certain quite different human emotions from each other - basing your assessments on projection without knowledge or empathy, you confuse contempt and bigotry and so forth with "hatred"; you confuse those who despise for cause with those who hate in ignorance, and so forth (another example besides this Trump one: your defense of flagrant racial bigots by claiming, accurately, that they do not "hate" black people and therefore (deluded) are not racially bigoted (clueless error)). That is of course revelatory, but of you not others.
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    A bit precious, coming from you, don't you think? You spend most of your time here trying to stoke division in the United States. Are they paying you well, or do they have something on you?
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  17. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Thanks for admitting so openly that you are feeding hate. Of course, the If you think a civil war is no problem, your choice.
    An interesting example how iceaura works (emphasize mine). Iceaura does not even care to support any of his invention by facts - he has simply a list of defamations, and makes a quite arbitrary choices about the defamations actually used. He could have used, with equal (means no) justification, any from the "and so forth" part of the list.

    BTW, it makes no sense to argue at all about bigotry. The only interesting question could be if the "prejudices" of the "bigots" are really "prejudices" or correlations observed by the people. Once the choice of words already indicates that there is no interest in discussing this, but that there is a prejudice that this is a "prejudice", what would be the point of arguing about bigotry?

    The difference between contempt and hatred is quite interesting for me only in relation to the question if there is really a correlation, with contempt being common among right-wing but not among the left-wing. The argument in favor of this correlation is not empirical observation of particular feelings of particular people, but about the ideological base. Contempt presupposes inequality - those despised are simply considered inferior. And contempt can be at the very base of a stable society. The rich despise the poor, the slaveholder the slaves, the aristocrats the mob, the intelligent the stupid, but they don't fight them - they are quite comfortable with a society where the despised ones have an inferior or at most formally equal position. Instead, hate requires action. There can be no stable society full of hate. The revolutionary hates those in power.

    Given that people are people with their own natural feelings, and left vs. right is often decided by quite different things like the environment, there will be also a lot of right-wing people who hate and left-wing people who have only contempt for those "deplorables". Given that marxists are usually not proletarians, but intellectuals, contempt of the educated for the uneducated can be expected to be quite common among them too. This would not be the politically correct feeling - those uneducated are, last but not least, innocent victims of that evil capitalist society. But do the real feelings of those marxists care about this? This would be an empirical question.
    You think I'm trying to stoke divisions in the US? Really?
    I describe what I see. And this is that the divisions inside the US are increasing, and in a quite high temp.

    I describe the consequences for the world. The division weakens the US, and the weaker the US the better for the rest of the world, given that the US is the most dangerous, most aggressive state of the world. On the other side, too much of this division, in particular a civil war, plausibly even increases the danger of wars elsewhere, instead of decreasing this danger. Moreover, I do not wish the US population a civil war. Ok, they supported their government which provoked and supported many civil wars around the world, so I could say "blame yourself, you have got what you deserve". But this was nonetheless not the decision of the people, but of a small political caste. But the victims of a civil war will be the people, not that political caste.

    And what I'm doing here in the forum? I consistently blame as the Dems, as the Reps for the criminal behavior of the US. This is something which tends to decrease the subdivisions. For many things I don't blame the constitutional power, but the deep state. Fighting against the deep state to recover the constitutional state would be an idea which could, at least in principle, unify the people. And if I explain why I'm against the US as a whole, given that the US is a murderous, evil state, this will usually unify the US population here too.
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You continue to overestimate my personal dominance of American political discourse, and my control over Republican voters's behavior. I can no more choose to have a US Republican voter accept an election loss without committing murder than I can choose to have them read the Mueller Report with comprehension, or puzzle their way through a scientific report on some aspect of climate change.

    Obviously civil war is a bad thing - that's why the Republican propaganda feed is threatening the US with civil war, hoping the decent majority will once again capitulate to their demands, once again let them walk away from the disasters they have created and the crimes they have committed.
    You parrot the media feed of the US fascist movement.
    What you are supposedly "trying" to do is irrelevant. Mindreading is unnecessary. You are stoking divisions in the US, in fact.

    You are doing that - in physical reality, in fact - by parroting the US fascist media feed (the Republican Party media feed, to put it in terms of something you may be capable of recognizing if you try.) That media feed is, and has been for forty years and more, dedicated to stoking "divisions" in the US. That's how the propaganda operations of fascist movements get it done, stereotypically even, and the media feed you parrot is the propaganda of the US fascist movement that has taken over the Republican Party.

    Not just trying, you understand, but succeeding, with your help - you and your fellow parrots provide the necessary repetition by which utter bullshit can come to dominate political discussion, making informed democratic self-government difficult by stoking irreconcilable "divisions".
    - - - -
    Racial prejudices are "correlations observed by the people", dumbass. That's how one identifies racial bigots - by the kinds of "correlations" they "observe".

    You are of course completely correct about the senselessness of arguing racial bigotry and prejudice with someone who has no idea how Jim Crow worked, why US police kill unarmed black men at the rate they do, why Donald Trump was convicted in court and fined millions for racism in rental housing management, or even why the Confederate soldiers fought the US Civil War (under the explicitly and intentionally racist battle flag we saw flown by Republican voters ransacking the US Capitol building just a few days ago) - so I don't. I just repetitively correct your repetitive idiocies on the topic, as part of a citizen's civic duty to dilute the effect of that propaganda technique.
    You support the further political ascension and eventual governmental takeover of a fascist movement in the US, one which has already been responsible for the great majority of the aggression you claim to oppose, one which has been systematically destroying the institutions of peaceful and competent government while expanding the power of paramilitary and military force in US society in its standard role of enforcing the will of rightwing corporate authoritarian interests.

    But in compensation we have your open endorsement of Republican Party propaganda as a means of weakening the US, making it less democratic and less able to manage its internal affairs. That's almost worth the price of the continual whackamole games we have to play with the repetitions.
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Yes. I only have to read what you write. I assume you're being paid to do it.

    Better for Putin, you mean. That seems to be your primary concern, and it shows us who is mostly likely paying you.

    Is it just this forum, or does your job involve doing this sort of thing across many forums? Do you do social media, too, or do they divide up the labour so you're the forums guy?

    The "deep state" is an invented fiction, as I'm sure you're aware.
  20. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    You start to distribute lies about me?
    No. For Putin the difference is not big, Russia is secure from US aggression, it has second strike ability, has good weapons, the US navy coming near the Russian shore would be sitting ducks for Russian hypersound rockets, Russia has secured itself against sanctions too, even all the West stopping all trade with Russia completely would not be deadly.
    It is the rest of the world who is actual or potential victim of US aggression.
    I'm aware that it is part of Western propaganda to deny the existence and the power of the US deep state.

    My position is based on information from non-Western media and internet sources. The position presented by Western mainstream media I consider to be unreliable propaganda, which cannot be taken seriously.

    One of my sources is Pepe Escobar, who writes the following:
    By the way, found by accident. AFAIR, iceaura has attributed the PATRIOT Act to the Reps, while I argued it was supported by the Dems too. But there is another pretender, namely Joe Biden:
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    No. "Feeding hate" is simply a behavior which has the intention to increase hatred. It is not about the effectiveness of this behavior. "Feeding hate" remains feeding hate even if the only result is laughter and an increasing friendship. And, of course, those who feed hate do this usually among their own. So iceaura is not feeding hate against Dems among the Reps, but names Reps "fascists" in a forum there the majority supports the Dems.
    So only evil Reps are threatening innocent Dems with dangers of civil war, not really but because they have some evil aim, forcing the Dems to capitulate without any necessity.

    Nice excuse for your feeding of hatred here in the forum.

    ?????? Do you want to justify here racial prejudices, by equating them with correlations, that means, with real simple observable facts, and the quote simply indicate that you quote me? Or are the quote scare quotes to indicate that racial prejudices are only claimed to be correlations observed by the people, but in fact are not?

    A lot of the usual lies about me disposed of.
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The claim that anyone opposed to the fascist movement that has taken over the Republican Party is thereby claiming "innocence" or the like for 'the Dems" is yet another part of that Republican media feed you parrot. It's dishonest, of course - but very common among your kind anyway.

    The Republican media feed did not always claim "bipartisan" support for these doings - only after they collapsed in disaster. When the Iraq War still looked like a victory, and the Patriot Act had not shown its colors, and the Crash of 08 was still in the future along with Katrina, the Republican feed claimed full credit. The gullible victims of these belated reversals - such as yourself - can always be counted on to forget what they were told last year, and take up the new Party line without qualm - like this:
    The Patriot Act, like the Iraq invasion of 2003, was a product of the Republican Party and its media wing (think tanks, etc) - specifically the Congress and administration of W&Cheney. That's historical fact - public record.
    Biden did not write the Patriot Act - not in 1994, and certainly not in the couple of months after 9/11 in which it was written. He was craven and calculating enough to sign on to it, of course - which is one reason I and everyone in my political corner have disliked and opposed him all these decades.

    As everyone with a working memory knows, and I have repeatedly posted, Biden (as well as Clinton and Kerry and a few other shameful Democratic cooperators), lent their names to quite a bit of the Republican agenda over the years - including the Iraq War, and other horrowshow products of American fascism in the early 2000s. That is a major reason why I and all other US leftwing libertarians have opposed the nomination of Clinton as well as Biden (and Kerry, in 2004) for the Presidency, said so much bad stuff about those three in particular, and have been banging on about the idiocy of "bipartisan" bs in the face of a Party controlled by a fascist movement.

    But of course to register that one would have to be able to recognize a fascist movement when confronted by one. And you can't.
  23. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Iceaura as usual projects his own fixation with the Rep vs. Dem fighting on me
    LOL. As if I would care which part of the bipartisan swamp created which piece of .... Once I see, by accident, things like that about Biden 1994, my reaction is "rather uninteresting, except that one can vex iceaura a little bit with this". And, bingo:
    Iceaura, simply learn to read. What Biden said, according to that source, is "Right after 1994, and you can ask the attorney general this, because I got a call when he introduced the Patriot Act. He said, 'Joe, I'm introducing the act basically as you wrote it in 1994.'" See, "the act basically as you wrote it" is obviously not the same act, but something slightly different. So, what you have written is not even in conflict to what I wrote.

    Whatever, now the designer of something basically the same as the PATRIOT Act, but not of the PATRIOT Act itself, can show how the PATRIOT Act can be used to fight the Trump supporters. Nice bipartisan cooperation. Biden has tried 1994, and failed, the Reps have tried after 9/11 and succeeded. Now Biden will apply this. I expect interesting times.
    Its you who cannot. Both are fascists. The Reps as well as the Dems. The Dems with the more dangerous version named "antifascist".

    BTW, I have heard there will be now an open racist named Kristen Clarke will become something related with civil rights. Ok, the quotes are presented by Tucker Carlson, so evil by itself

    so that they don't count. Moreover, evil German racists have added German subtitles and distributed it even in Germany. And anti-white racism simply cannot exist in principle or so. And those results she presented are simply results of race science, not?
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