Creation and evolution go hand in hand

One way to resolve creation and evolution is if genesis was talking about the evolution of human consciousness, into one which would allow the formation of civilization.

There needed to be a key change in the human mind so eons of instinctive wandering traditions using smaller groups would change into settlements where large populations learn to live together. Even in modern times, anything outside the box scares most people. Civilization was completely outside of the box, and the leaders were spooked. Something needed to change to make living outside the box, as they developed all the logistics, less scary so a large group of people could sustain the fear and fight the urge to run backwards.

The story of genesis tells us about the various phases of this change. The creation of this new human was a key part of evolution.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

It's not at random. Chemistry has set rules that it follows, and with enough time and attempts in favorable conditions, the probabilities for something "too complex" becomes not all that improbable at all. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

I wonder how much outside research you've done on abiogenesis, because it's not like there isn't a lot out there on how primitives could have gotten started. In fact, the problem is there's a lot of different models that could be right, and it's figuring out what is more likely that's the problem.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Well here is your opportunity to shear the models you are familiar and discuss abiogenesis , I am familiar with some chemistry so come forward.
I know chemistry is not random , but that is wha many atheist believe ( Miller experiment ) was one of them , Some Polack from Harford mentioned about miselles , that is over generalized , and there are many more .
Well, again come forward lets discuss .

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I'm not an expert in the field, so I don't have any particular models to discuss or defend. That wasn't my point though...you seem to think that because today's life is very complex, that it couldn't have come from much simpler mechanisms. Life did not begin from today's parts magically thrown together, and no one has suggested that who is familiar with biology. The Miller experiment wasn't even about that, it was about seeing if conditions of the early Earth might form substances that could lead to life. Had nothing to do with randomness at all.

If you want to discuss something in particular, follow the link I gave...it's a relatively new model, and while I don't know a lot about chemistry, it makes sense to me as a possibility.

 

I went into your reference and copied the abstract of the people who did some work and of some hand wavers . after you have gone over them , show me some outstanding according to your understanding and let' discuss
e transition from inanimate to animate chemistry is thought to involve self-organised networks of molecular species whose collective emergent property gives rise to the overall characteristics of living systems. In the past, simple autocatalytic networks have been constructed that display basic forms of cooperative behaviour. These include reciprocal catalysis, autocratic, and hypercyclic networks. The design and emergent properties of these novel molecular networks are reviewed here
The preparation of synthetic molecules showing the remarkable efficiencies characteristic of natural biopolymer catalysts remains a formidable challenge for chemical biology. Although significant advances have been made in the understanding of protein structure and function, the de novo construction of such systems remains elusive. Re-engineered natural enzymes and catalytic antibodies, possessing tailored binding pockets with appropriately positioned functional groups, have been successful in catalysing a number of chemical transformations, sometimes with impressive efficiencies. But efforts to produce wholly synthetic catalytic peptides have typically resulted in compounds with questionable structural stability, let alone reactivity. Here we describe a 33-residue synthetic peptide, based on the coiled-coil structural motif, which efficiently catalyses the condensation of two shorter peptide fragments with high sequence- and diastereoselectivity. Depending on the substrates used, we observe rate enhancements of tenfold to 4,100-fold over the background, with catalytic efficiencies in excess of 10(4). These results augur well for the rational design of functional peptides.
The production of amino acids and their condensation to polypeptides under plausibly prebiotic conditions have long been known. But despite the central importance of molecular self-replication in the origin of life, the feasibility of peptide self-replication has not been established experimentally. Here we report an example of a self-replicating peptide. We show that a 32-residue alpha-helical peptide based on the leucine-zipper domain of the yeast transcription factor GCN4 can act autocatalytically in templating its own synthesis by accelerating the thioester-promoted amide-bond condensation of 15- and 17-residue fragments in neutral, dilute aqueous solutions. The self-replication process displays parabolic growth pattern with the initial rates of product formation correlating with the square-foot of initial template concentration.
The transition from inanimate to animate chemistry is thought to involve self-organised networks of molecular species whose collective emergent property gives rise to the overall characteristics of living systems. In the past, simple autocatalytic networks have been constructed that display basic forms of cooperative behaviour. These include reciprocal catalysis, autocratic, and hypercyclic networks. The design and emergent properties of these novel molecular networks are reviewed here
The recent discovery of polymerase activity in a ribosomal RNA intervening sequence as well as other studies of RNA-replicating systems suggest that the first living molecules were RNAs called replicases. According to this suggestion from biochemical studies, the replicase system is chosen as the simplest case of self-reproducing systems, and the fundamental problem of "what is life" is theoretically investigated by analysing the behavior of a replicase system with a supply of organic materials under prebiotic conditions. In this analysis, it is essential to consider (i) self-reproduction on the basis of its own information, (ii) maintenance and improvement of the information by selection and (iii) environmental event of non-biologically generating organic materials from inorganic matter by photochemical reactions, probably occurring in prebiotic conditions on the Earth. The replicases can retain and further elevate their self-reproducibility through competition among their descendant mutants for acquiring a limited quantity of materials, if the initial ability of self-reproduction and the concentration of replicases are above some critical values. By this selection, the replicase molecules retain a narrowed range of nucleotide sequences, or a state of lower entropy, against the natural tendency of sequence divergence, but this entropy reduction is sufficiently compensated by the entropy production in the environmental event of energy conversion from photons to heat. Once the stability of a self-reproducing system is established in the above sense, the self-reproducing system can operate as Maxwell's demon to regulate the outside flow of matter by its catalytic function without any contradiction to the second law of thermodynamics.
The inhomogeneous replicator equation is derived as the continuous time model for parallel first and second order autocatalytic replication of macromolecules in a flow reactor based on mass action kinetics. It is shown that the total concentration of replicating material determines the relative importance of the first order and the second order mechanism. A complete description of the dynamics of the first order model and some special features of the inhomogeneous replicator equation are presented. A minimal prebiotic scenario with the potentiality to develop cooperation is derived from the inhomogeneous replicator equation. In this model cooperation can emerge when the total concentration of replication material exceeds a certain threshold. Below this value, a single species is selected; which one is determined by the rate constants of the first order reaction alone. Above this threshold the second order process becomes important and may lead to cooperative behavior such as hypercycles.
Symbiosis is an association between different organisms that leads to a reciprocal enhancement of their ability to survive. Similar mutually beneficial relationships can operate at the molecular level in the form of a hypercycle, a collective of two or more self-replicating species interlinked through a cyclic catalytic network. The superposition of cross-catalysis onto autocatalytic replication integrates the members of the hypercycle into a single system that reproduces through a second-order (or higher) form of nonlinear autocatalysis. The hypercycle population as a whole is therefore able to compete more efficiently for existing resources than any one member on its own. In addition, the effects of beneficial mutations of any one member are spread over the entire population. The formation of hypercycles has been suggested as an important step in the transition from inanimate to living chemistry, and a large number of hypercycles are expected to be embedded within the complex networks of living systems. But only one naturally occurring hypercycle has been well documented, while two autocatalytic chemical systems may contain vestiges of hypercyclic organization. Here we report a chemical system that constitutes a clear example of a minimal hypercyclic network, in which two otherwise competitive self-replicating peptides symbiotically catalyse each others' production.
stract
A highly complex RNA world, as is sometimes presented in view of the widespread and diversified use of RNA enzymes, would have encountered many difficulties in passing to a world with catalysis mediated by proteins. These difficulties can be overcome by postulating a very early relationship between the nucleotide and the amino acid components. In particular, after asserting that some characteristics expressed by (nucleotide) coenzymes in catalysis are easier to understand if a close and early relationship between these coenzymes and amino acids is hypothesized, a model is presented for the origin of the enzyme-coenzyme complex. This model is essentially based on an intermediate formed by a tRNA-like molecule covalently linked to a polypeptide. The model attributes the majority of the catalytic role in the ribonucleoprotein world to the latter complex and thus it takes into account the birth of the key intermediate in the origin of protein synthesis-namely, peptidyl-tRNA, which would have otherwise been extremely difficult to select. The predictions of the model are discussed along with its robustness, using the data derived from the study of intermediary metabolism and those from molecular biology. Finally, the appearance of the genetic code in the late phase of the ribonucleopeptide world is discussed

 

I don't know who you are .
I posted the information of abstract that supposed lead to a cell formation
Now you supposed to be an intelligent person go read the abstract and form your position and we take the discussion from there .
I have a position that the posted reference in wiki will not make a cell
Sr. you should be suspended for been insolent. but this are not my wishes

 

In this forum the moderators join in the discussions so when he said you had a warning do take some notice. I haven't had warnings yet so I am not sure of the status of a warning or how close it is to a temporary suspension.
They don't like long "cut and pastes" entered into the threads.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

It's has been done.

 

Tell me more please?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

There are evolution simulation programs as well as programs that are developed through the evolutionary method.

 

Well I read the article and read the abstract, more pertinent to the article from Wiki. beside I copied the abstracts and posted to(Mr. Superior)Fraggle Rocker, definitely would like very much to discuss
to me is a bunch of extrapolation , and the closest to possibility was to replicate a peptide but the replication was by using a pepdide as a catalyst, which is a material made by nature of a regular cell.

 

Sr.
I. Unacceptable behaviour that may result in a temporary or permanent ban

You are very insulting , You as a person of age , should be ashamed of yourself

 

This sounds like telling the executioner he is ugly? It won't help. Just accept it, and don't do that again.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Unless you mean the consciousness of bacteria, insects, etc., you are leaving out most of the evolved species. I’ve noticed that Creationists and similarly situated folks tend to focus on homo sapiens without much regard to the other 99.9999….% of evolved animals, not to mention plants.

Except Genesis writers had no idea about evolution. They needed to explain where the first human came from, so their version of the Creation Myth covers that. Creation covers what folks don’t understand about science.
[/QUOTE]

The notion of “living molecules” is a whole other can of worms for Creationists. It would seem necessary for them to propose that God ordained this to happen. In so saying, God walks away and lets the dice roll as they may, without intervention. God takes the first crap shoot, and simply walks away? This may border on Deism, or some other beliefs. It certainly is hard to imagine how divine compassion ever arises from this.

Maybe to resolve the conflict, the Creationist needs to create a God that evolves. A gambler who develops remorse.

 

I got into a debate with a pastor and told him, "the Christians are the biggest advocates of evolution there is, even more so than those who promote evolution". He said "Hows that?"
I said, "If from Adam and Eve the whole human race has delevloped their genetic variation in just 5,000 odd years, the rate of evolution is extremely fast".

"And besides it talks of evolution in Genesis". He said "where is that?"
So I showed him Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
If it had become corrupt it wasn't like it was intended , so it had "evolved" into a corrupt violent form.
He was stumped.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

thank you friend , Is he an executioner , ( moderator ) , if he is , how can he be so partial , this is not democracy in science , but plain abuse , My south American upbringing unfortunately is not to passive, nut I have be because I want to follow the teaching of Jesus . I suppose Jesus did not kept silence .
But I really appreciate your advice .

 

Jesus didn't say much in his own defence when in front of Herod. There is a time and place for everything.
I found it unnerving to have the moderators amongst the forum discussion but it has it good points to. Learn to get on with them and they'll assist you too.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Fraggle is our Matthew Hopkins, scourge of all who confuse religion with science.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Fraggle:
"I have smelt out thy Wizardry, and thou shalt die"

Sciforumer:
"But I only said I thought the world was created."

Fraggle:
"Enough of your deistic drivel! Let the wood be brought. You shall be burned."

Sciforumer:
"Did he say banned or burned. I'm sure he said burned. Did you hear him?................."

 

No, creationism is non-science and a desperate attempt to twist it round observable facts does us no good.