Congress is working hard to ground NASA's Mars mission

Great post! And a fact that none of our pessimistic friends have yet addressed.

 

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That's your opinion. There will always be a need as long as we are technically able to achieve the goal safely.

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Nice try again my friend. As you are aware and as I have already told you, the first arrogant put down was from yourself. Would you like to go back and check?
Let's get it straight once again. Despite your pessimism and bleeding heart approach re costs etc, in time it will happen. We are going to put men on Mars. I hope that that is an International effort lead by NASA, but if it were some other country, I wish them all the best and support their own endeavour.

 

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You seem to spout untruths over-and-over-and-over again, and throw out straw-mans. I am not pessimistic about human space exploration. I also do not have a bleeding heart approach -- whatever that is supposed to mean. I've never doubted that it would happen in time, that men would walk on Mars. Why don't you try reading what I write for a change -- instead of trying to assign outlandish untrue crap like this to me. A lot of my posts here have been me correcting your wrong characterizations.

 

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You mean untruths about who posted the first "put down" and inferred that anyone outside the USA should butt out?

Yet you come up with nonsense such as

And yet we have from your first post........

And note, your first post with two put downs already![highlighted in red]
Here's another example......

Costs as well as politics are as I'm fond of saying, the two horrible variables that do hinder and slow down our inevitable ultimate adventure.
But they are variables, and they do change over time.
Irrespective of costs the International approach is the best way to go. A united humanity front that will benefit all and us as a species without war and such.

Let me again state what I believe.
We are not going to stop human progress. We will in time go to Mars, and we will in time [if we survive] go to all corners of the solar system, and even beyond. [At stages of your involvement in this thread you seem to agree with that: good.]
Robotic missions are great and continue to do a great job, until we ourselves are ready to go further. And even in the future, robotic missions will always be a part of the exploration of space.
Robotic and human exploration will go hand in hand.
We have many dangerous issues to overcome such as radiation and many technical issues in these future ventures, and when we master those issues and reasonable safety can be expected, then the adventure will begin.
Whatever reasons you see as being the impetus of us going to Mars and beyond [adventure, going where no man has gone before, necessity as earth does have a use by date, science, knowledge and hopefully ET contact] they are all relevant and part of the human makeup and need.
Have you read post 50?

 

Obviously, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the words "infer" or "inferred".
It was you, paddoboy, that some how quite mistakenly "inferred" that Nacho Posted "...that anyone outside the USA should butt out".
In none of Nacho's Posts did he ever State, nor implicitly imply "...that anyone outside the USA should butt out".
Possibly, one of the "untruths" that Nacho referred to.

There is nothing in what you 'quoted' by Nacho that any reasonable person would construe as "nonsense" paddoboy, nor would most any reasonable person construe what you [highlighted in red] as "put downs".
On the contrary, your statements seem more like simple ad hominem attacks on Nacho, instead of any attempt to actually address what he is opining.
Just wondering, paddoboy, do you suppose that any reasonable person could possibly construe the following 'quote', from your Post #18, as a "put down"? * notice the "[highlighted in red]":
"Oh, and btw, if NASA for some reason [with the nutty political situation in your country now with the moron Trump] ceased to exist and disbanded, we as a human race would still get to Mars and beyond to the stars in time.

paddoboy, you are simply, as usual, repeating the preaching, proselytising and evangelising what you seem to fill most Threads that you choose to participate in with.
That is, paddoboy, what you "believe".
To Wit : " Propaganda, preaching, proselytising and evangelising
21. Propaganda is loosely defined here as posts that have no aim other than to proclaim the superiority of one belief over another, particularly where the belief in question is the subject of controversy or argument. Examples include preaching one’s own religion as the only true religion, proclaiming that one’s favoured political party is superior to the opposing party, or proclaiming that one group is morally superior to another. The signature of propaganda is that it consists largely of a member expressing strongly held personal beliefs about things that can’t be proven, supposedly in the interests of achieving some important aim (e.g. world peace, governing the nation effectively, ensuring that people act morally).

22. Propaganda wars are similar to flame wars, except in that they ostensibly involve argument about a topic. They are typically characterised by zealots on both sides of the argument who have no intention of listening to the opposing point of view, let alone possibly changing their minds. The result is invariably that members become frustrated and spin-off complaints to the moderators become rife.

23. Propaganda also includes material copied verbatim from other websites, books or articles, which demonstrates a clear bias for or against a particular belief. It does not include article which examine an issue objectively and rationally, looking at both sides of an argument.
...
25. Proselytising is attempting to convert others to one’s own beliefs, often with threats of adverse consequences if one refuses to convert.

26. Evangelising is where the poster’s main aim is to spread the word about his or her beliefs, without being interested in real discussion or critical analysis. "
- the ^^above quoted^^ from : http://www.sciforums.com/threads/sciforums-site-rules.142880/

Seriously, paddoboy? Ending your Post where you are complaining of "put downs", by referring to Post #50!

paddoboy, most everyone on this Forum is quite familiar with your..."beliefs"...as it seems you prefer to constantly preach, proselytize and evangelize them to no end.

BTW, Nacho, welcome to SciForums!
I understand fully your position and must say that, for the most part, I heartily concur!

 

No I certainly understand the meaning of the word "inferred"
And I infer the following means "butt out" the first post by nacho.......

But as has been noted in the past by many, your interpretation of text, [particularly mine] is highly questionable at best, and down right nonsense at worst.

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The rest of your rant is best ignored.

 

Dr Robert Zubrin:

 

No. It was closer to asking persons to butt-IN. Rather than waiting and expecting for NASA/USA taxpayer to do it all, send money to NASA on your lonesome or constantly advocate your own government to get heavily into manned space exploration and pay taxes with them. billvon certainly showed that he supported NASA from other than the sidelines. Isn't that what you want: manned exploration right away? I hope, and really think, that all persons have a pride in what NASA has done and continues to do. I hope, and really think, that admiration extends to most of the persons in most of the countries on Earth. All can share in what MANKIND (as opposed to citizens of the USA) has accomplished. I get that and wouldn't try to take that away from anybody. But, advocating expensive manned exploration, when it is not needed yet, and not having to worry about paying for it is another matter. If you are so adamant about manned space exploration, then step up and pay for it -- with a check (NASA would probably take VISA or Mastercard or other credit cards) or continually advocate to your government until they take it up and start getting the big dollars from you that is necessary for the manned exploration.

Your "inferred", "butt out" "pessimism", and "bleeding heart approach" are your manifestations.

 

Thanks for the welcome dmoe! (I hope it's OK to shorten your handle to that). All good points in your post.

 

hey-welcome-- is this the same nacho from the other forum?

 

when was the last time you were there?

 

Would it not be desirable, to find out if a small group of humans can live together for a few decades here on Earth, in complete isolation - no outside physical support, only communications, where they have the gravity humans evolved with and O2 they can take from the air? I have doubts that they can. I may be wrong, but that is by no means certain. This is a basic and critical question. Mars will still be there 100 years from now. What is the rush to go there with technology that barely can when many basic questions are still unanswered, especially with technology rapidy advancing?

If that proves to be within human capability, then establish a self-sustaining colony on the moon.* Think of it as a "dress rehearsal" for an ultimate version on Mars, if international cooperation wants to pay the much greater cost. It is not appropriate for this generation to tell a few generations hence, what they should do. That they should colonize Mars.

* There are many advantages there. An important one, is that electrical power requirements will be possible from sun light with about 95% conversion efficiency and no where else (Mars included).

At perihelion Mars is 206,655,215 km from the Sun and at aphelion it is 249,232,432 km distant. Also note Mars is moving more slowly at or near apogee. I. e. for many months (one year?) Mars is more than 220,000,000 km from the sun and the PV cell system must be designed to still provide energy to the colony then.

 

Heh krash661. Yep, same one. Good to see you. I hope all the others found a new home -- I see Confused2 (and you) making posts here.

 

We are spending far more on robotic vs. manned research - so it sounds like concerns like yours are being taken into account.

There have been several threads on this. Basically from what we know, Mars contains all the raw materials for construction (iron, silicon dioxide for glass, calcium silicates for Portland cement) and life (water, carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous etc.) It is definitely much harder to get them, which is why I could see it taking 100 years. For example, to get nitrogen for an air mix, we can collect nitrates (which have been found on Mars) and heat them to decompose them back to free nitrogen. On Earth we just open the window.

As long as that works, I would be all for that too. We can take a lesson from how aviation worked in the US. At first the government funded most aviation projects. The first regular air service (mail delivery) was run by the Army, then later the Post Office, before being handed over to private companies. Airlines were at first very heavily subsidized and regulated, then later deregulated to become like any other commercial venture.

Sure. A good way to do that would be to offer a simple payment for services - $10 billion to deliver a habitat to Mars and perform X experiments, $2 billion to deliver a robotic probe to Titan to do X Y and Z.

I don't think there's much value in terms of terrestrial demand. But there is a huge demand for material for orbital devices (satellites etc.) - and material already in orbit is several orders of magnitude cheaper than material that has to be launched from Earth.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

It is unfortunate that you post falsehoods so often; it will lead to no one taking you seriously.

 

That's yet another good reason to elect new congressmen.

 

...it is OK...

 

That's good, IMO. A big manned mission startup might suck that bone-dry though!

Thanks. I'll search for and read them. One of the things that concerns me is catastrophic failure of a critical component, say a power plant or air-mix factory. A lot of redundancy would have to be built in -- not just in the number of plants/factories but also in how they operate. That same catastrophe on Earth might be mostly forgiven on Earth, as the environment is more hospitable. If enough redundancy in numbers/capacity was not built into the Mars plants/factories, that might still necessitate a return to Earth (and remember, we were talking about this in the context of Earth being destroyed, and the people on Mars having to return to Earth because of dependency). All of that redundancy is going to take up more funds.

Agreed. That is kinda-somewhat like what is happening now with Space-X, and others..

 

I have a soft spot for NASA and the outstanding work they have done, and certainly hope the US congress is not as short sighted as some here seem to be.
And again coupled with the likes of SpaceX and Musk and the possibilities of an International effort, should make destination Mars even more achievable in shorter time.
Irrespective of the bleeding hearts approach and such, space exploration and endeavours will not be stopped in the long run.
Whatever's out there to be discovered and explored will in time be done.

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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/china-wants-visit-mars-by-2020-beat-nasa-set-first-manned-moon-base-1556304

China wants to visit Mars by 2020 and beat Nasa to set up the first manned moon base
By Mary-Ann Russon
April 22, 2016 18:05 BST


China has announced that it intends to explore Mars and plans to get there by 2020, as well as being one of the first countries to explore the "dark side" of the moon.

In a rare video interview with the BBC, Wu Weiren, a high-ranking official in the China National Space Administration (CNSA) who served as chief of China's moon and Mars missions, revealed that China is currently working on a definite Mars probe exploration mission.

"We will orbit Mars, land and deploy a rover — all in one mission," said Wu. "We could have started our Mars mission earlier but finally the country has given its approval."

Interestingly, China also has its sights set on effectively colonising the moon by establishing a manned base.

"Our short-term goal is to orbit the moon, land on the moon and take samples back from the moon. Our long-term goal is to explore, land, and settle. We want a manned lunar landing to stay for longer periods and establish a research base," explained Wu.

"It's quite challenging to land there, but according to research there might be water or ice because of the lack of sunlight, so we'd very much like to check that out."

The Martian has made China hopeful
Contrary to what you might think, Wu stressed that China is very keen to collaborate with space agencies from other countries such as Nasa in the US – much like in the sci-fi film The Martian, where China's space agency offers its Taiyang Shen space rocket booster to send rescue supplies to Nasa astronaut Mark Watney, who is stuck on Mars with dwindling resources.

This is an idea that has been impossible since the US Congress passed a spending bill in 2011 expressly forbidding Nasa from working in China, due to a high risk of espionage.

"We would like to co-operate with the US, especially for space and moon exploration," he said. "We have urged the US many times to get rid of restrictions so scientists from both countries can work together on future exploration."

Reuters reports that a senior Chinese space official Xu Dazhe, the chief of the China National Space Administration, said at a press conference on 22 April that The Martian film shows that the US would not be adverse to working with China.

"When I saw the US film The Martian, which envisages China-US cooperation on a Mars rescue mission under emergency circumstances, it shows that our U.S. counterparts very much hope to co-operate with us," said Xu.

"However, it's very regrettable that, for reasons everyone is aware of, there are currently some impediments to cooperation. I believe that on this matter, China is more and more open, and I hope our American friends can take note."

US still worries about risk of espionage
In 2015, researchers from the University of California prepared a special report for the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission entitled China Dream, Space Dream: China's Progress in Space Technologies and Implications for the United States.

"Although China is probably truthful when it says that it is not in a space race, such statements mask the true intent of its space program: to become militarily, diplomatically, commercially, and economically as competitive as the US is in space," the authors wrote in the report.

"As a result, China's progress in space technologies, whether in relative or absolute terms, has implications for the US and its neighbours. Nevertheless, although China's space program may pose challenges for the United States and its space power neighbours, it may also present opportunities for scientific collaboration on the Earth's environment and outer space.

"In addition, it may make human space flight safer by providing additional capabilities to rescue stranded or imperiled astronauts through the use of common docking apparatus."
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Six reasons why an inevitable manned landing on Mars should be an International effort of all first world countries at least:
[1] A united approach benefitting all.
[2]Example of how we can all work together and leading to co-operation in other areas of human endeavour.
[3] Spreading the cost factor.
[4] Common access to all technical advances and engineering methods.
[5] The spreading and access to all scientific knowledge and data gained.
[6] Getting it done sooner rather than later and so being able to apply the scientific data and advances sooner for the benefit of all.