Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by Steve Klinko, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    It is easy to see from the Inter Mind Model of Consciousness (https://TheInterMind.com/#_Toc337459238) that when your Brain dies, the Connection to the Conscious Mind is broken. Nobody knows what the Conscious Mind will Experience when it is disconnected from the Brain.
     
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  3. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    • Please do not advertise on sciforums.
    I can teach you how to look Outside the Box, but it will take a little work and concentration on your part.
    See: https://TheInterMind.com
     
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Please explain in a sentence or two what the "intermind" is supposed to be. I can't tell from reading your web page - which is a bad thing, by the way, seeing as that's the main point you are aiming to "teach" on that page. It looks like you need to edit it to make it a lot clearer than it currently is. That page dates from 2012, right? Have there been any developments in your "theory" of mind since 2012?

    Is the "intermind" a product of a physical brain, or is it something supernatural or external to a physical human being?
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn't going to read and you just reinforced my decision

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  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Na don't bother

    It was really a rhetorical question

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  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    When the brain dies there is no mind of any description

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  10. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    When you ask questions like these I can only assume you are not looking at the current website. In any case, you will not understand the Inter Mind without understanding the concept of a Conscious Mind. The three Preliminaries sections are there to orient your thinking in the direction of understanding the existence of Conscious Experience in a Conscious Mind. The Conscious Experience of Redness and Conscious Light (see the website) in general is the basis of many of the arguments. If you don't want to read the Preliminaries then you should just go directly to The Inter Mind Model section which fully explains what the Inter Mind is and why Logically there must be an Inter Mind. You should also read the Arguments sections. This cannot be done in a couple of sentences. If you actually have already read The Inter Mind Model section, then I apologize because there is nothing more I can say. If it has to be stated in a sentence, the best that can be said is that the Inter Mind is a Bridge between the Physical Mind (Brain) and the Conscious Mind.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I'm looking at the one you keep linking in your posts. Is that an old one? Why don't you link to the new one?
    I skimmed through it. I get the impression that you think that light is somehow important to consciousness.
    Can you summarise what the Inter Mind is, in a sentence or two, or is the concept so complicated that I need to read through thousands of words before I will understand what you're talking about?

    The best ideas can usually be described briefly. Obviously, there can be many layers of detail beyond the brief description.
    Hmm...
    Okay. Is the Inter Mind a physical structure or a supernatural structure? Does it exist in the physical brain, or somewhere else?

    Why is a bridge needed?
     
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Think this lady sums up my reaction

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  13. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    I say Conscious Light is important to the discussion. The website makes the distinction between Physical Light (Electromagnetic) and Conscious Light (Experienced in the Mind). The first Preliminary section walks you through the various stages of the Perception of Light and introduces the concept of Conscious Light.

    A Bridge is needed because The Inter Mind Model addresses the Problem of the relationship of Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. Nobody knows what is going on when a Conscious Experience like Redness happens. All we can say for sure is that Neural Activity for Red happens in the Brain, and then Correlated with that, a Conscious Experience of Redness happens. There is Zero understanding as to how the Neural Activity leads to an Experience of Redness, or in the general case of all the Colors, to an Experience of Conscious Light. So the Inter Mind is a Speculation based on the realization that there is something missing in the chain of processing from Neural Activity to the actual Experience in the Mind. The Inter Mind is a necessary new unknown stage in between the Physical Mind (Brain) and the Conscious Mind.

    The Inter Mind Model is more of a Framework for Consciousness than a theory of Consciousness. The Inter Mind website favors a Connected Perspective of Consciousness where there is a separate Physical Mind (Brain) and a separate Conscious Mind. In this case the Inter Mind will connect from the Physical Mind, in Physical Space to the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space. So further Speculation would indicate that the Inter Mind must exist partly in Physical Space and partly in Conscious Space. Since the Inter Mind Model is a Framework it should also apply to Speculations that Consciousness Emerges from the Neurons. In this case the Inter Mind will be all in Physical Space and the Conscious Mind will be shown to be some how an already know Physical Phenomenon. But the mechanism for how the Neural Activity produces the Conscious Experience in the Conscious Mind will have to be called the Inter Mind aspect of Neural Activity because it will be the Bridge between the Neural Activity and what is happening in the as yet unexplained Physical Conscious Mind.
     
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Which mind does LSD affect?
     
  15. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Obviously LSD affects the Physical Mind because LSD is a Physical substance. But now let's consider that the Inter Mind and Conscious Mind are now connected to a Physical Mind that is not functioning normally because of the LSD. The Inter Mind will do the best it can to make sense out of what the Physical Mind is doing. What you get is the classic bizarre Conscious Experiences that people using LSD report. So the LSD is ultimately going to affect all three Minds.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. No matter how you want to present this, fact is that many people know what happens to the conscious mind when disconnected from the brain. Ask any anesthesiologist what happens to consciousness under anesthesia. It goes away, replaced by absolute nothing. (you may be gone 5 min, 5 hrs, 5 days, 5 yrs, 59 yrs, and have absolutely no idea of any continuity) But interestingly the subconscious mind (interoception) remains functional in keeping homeostasis.
    Not only do we know how to disconnect the conscious mind that is aware of its environment, we are able to retain the subconscious mind that controls bodily functions. As Anil Seth observes , under anesthesia You turn into an object and when they stop anesthesia You return back into a thinking person again.

    The obvious conclusion is that when the brain dies, all conscious and sub-conscious functions cease and You simply disappear forever, replaced by nothing , nothing at all.

    p.s. Where do you think the Inter-Mind resides? Inside or outside the brain?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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  18. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    No bridge is required. It is sufficient to say "I don't know how A leads to C" without needing to introduce an interim stage B and then say "I don't know how A leads to B, or how B leads to C".
    Correct. We do not know how A leads to C.
    There is no "realization that there is something missing...". We simply don't know how A leads to C. Until you come up against an impossibility, there is logically no reason to conclude as you have done. Basically you are just guessing, with zero evidence or rationale (at least not on show here) and just your confidence to support you.

    From a logical point of view, "we don't know how A leads to C" is no logical reason to intersperse interim stage B into the chain as being necessary, especially as you are then left with two unknowns (how A leads to B, how B leads to C) rather than just one (how A leads to C). Can you answer either of these two unknowns any better than the one unknown? No.
    So the "Inter Mind" is not necessary unless you can show that A leading to C is not possible without it. And no, not knowing how A leads to C, irrespective of time taken looking at the problem, is not the same as saying that it is impossible.
    Yet you are unable to offer any knowledge as to how it connects to either, so at best are in no better position than current scientific thinking, and at worse just confusing the situation.
    This "Conscious Space" being something for which you have provided no explanation for, no evidence for, no support? No, all you're still doing is just relabelling our current lack of knowledge and inserting more unknowns.
    Here you're just saying "No one has any idea, but it could be monistic, or it could be dualistic". Geez. If you don't know the answer to a question would you normally say "Well, it could be X, or it could be not-X, or somewhere in between" and think you're saying something worth hearing?

    So come on, set out these experiments your linked pages try to explain. Let's see what you're actually offering. Let's see if there's anything at all in what you've spent years trying to fathom, beyond simple confidence in a brain/mind dualism.
     
  19. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Remember that the Inter Mind Model (IMM) is a Framework for studying Conscious Experience. The IMM does not specify what the Inter Mind is, but the specification makes it clear that there must be something like an Inter Mind in the Processing chain. The Inter Mind Model applies to both Dualist and Monist Perspectives. The IMM goes beyond just saying that we don't know how the Neurons produce Conscious Experience. The logical discussions for the IMM lead to a realization that there is a lot of Processing missing in the Brain. Most of this Processing is related to the Binding Problem of Consciousness. I stipulate that this missing Processing is in some as of yet not understood Processing stage (The Inter Mind).

    From your Monist Perspective, the Inter Mind must be fully in the Brain. Eventually if Science discovers the Mechanism of the Processing for how Conscious Experiences come from the Neural Activity then that Processing will be the Inter Mind aspect of the Brain.

    From my Dualist Perspective, the Inter Mind will be partly in the Physical Brain and Partly in the Conscious Mind. From the Dualist Perspective the Inter Mind is Connecting the Physical Mind (Brain) to the Conscious Mind.
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Think I will get more sense out of this

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    then the words in your post

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  21. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    But when we find out how the Brain leads to Conscious Experience, don't you think we will have discovered a Process or Mechanism or Something? The thing we are looking for is not a Nothing, it is a Something, so we should acknowledge that.

    Conscious Space is the place where your Conscious Experiences exist. It helps to conceptually separate the Conscious Experience from the Neurons. If you don't admit to a Conscious Space your Conscious Experiences will have no place to go, but because we cannot conceive of them as being in the Neurons, they will Float outside of the Neurons anyway. Easier just to propose a Conscious Space for them. Think about the Experiences themselves as Phenomena in and of themselves. What would you propose to do with Redness, the Standard A Tone, or the Salty Taste? These kinds of things must be directly dealt with. Science cannot ignore these things by saying they are just Illusions or that they are just some Emergent Phenomena. Science has for too long been saying "Nothing to See Here" when it comes to the Conscious Phenomena themselves. They always try to misdirect your thinking back to the Neurons.

    The Experiments are trying to Prove that there is something to Conscious Space. What are you asking for?
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    IMO, what you have named the Inter Mind is the neural pattern that generates the consciouss mind. It is not just the neurons (processors), or even the whole network from which consciousness emerges , it is a specific pattern of neuron arrangement which has consciousness.
    The brain also has neuron patterns which are sub-conscious and only used for homeostasis, there are neural patterns for processing all the incoming sensory data. IOW, every function of the brain is processed by a specific area and neural pattern in the brain. Of course these patterns communicate and consult with each other electro-chemically This process started billions of years ago with single celled organism communicating and acting via chemical "quorum sensing" (QS)
    (I await moderation on this but quorum sensing is a term used in the AI world).

    So, in humans only part of the brain is actually truly conscious and self-aware, the other parts are self-referential but sub-conscious. As Anil Seth so clearly demonstrated, the brain and all its wonderful abilities is first and foremost an evolved survival mechanism.
    Shakespeare came much later.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021

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