Compromising with apartheid [second try]

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by S.A.M., Sep 27, 2009.

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  1. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    Are you saying there actually is no such law? Hmm...

    Where are these Palestinian refugees you're talking about? How many of them are there and where are they all?

    Just a rough idea would be good.
     
    James R, Sep 28, 2009
    #41

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  3. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Let's be clear then.

    Do you think the Palestinian people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Israel?
    Do you think the Israeli people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Palestine?
     
    James R, Sep 28, 2009
    #42

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  5. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No I won't. I won't pander to your denial of the Palestinian problem.

    I won't ask the rape victim to strip so you can decide if she was really raped. I refuse. Absolutely, completely, totally to explain to you the Palestinian refugee problem.

    And I will never engage you on this topic, ever again.

    I thank you for making it clear to me.
     
    S.A.M., Sep 28, 2009
    #43

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  7. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    yes. I believe i already said though i might be wrong and might have only said that recognizing Israel exist is an ok thing to ask for.
    yes with all right accorded to states.



    of course my beliefs are more complex than this but I don't think you were asking me to go into detail.
     
    pjdude1219, Sep 28, 2009
    #44
  8. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    If you're going to address me, please be up front about it. Don't mooch around and pretend you're talking to the air or talking about me behind my back.

    From "some people" eh? Sounds like "some people" share private messages that they really ought to keep private.

    So you're accusing me of denying the plight of the Palestinians when I ask you to justify your claim that non-native non-Jews are denied a "right of return" by the state of Israel.

    Do you have ANY actual evidence that there is such a denial, seeing as it seems that there are no actual laws concerning the matter (something I was not previously aware of)? Or is it just rhetoric on your part?

    Forgiving somebody who has wronged you is one of the most difficult of tasks any human being ever has to face. You can't force forgiveness. It can only come from the victim himself. Of course, I can totally understand how a victim of the holocaust might be unable to ever forgive. But on the other hand, I know of plenty who have.

    This is emotive nonsense that practically amounts to trolling again. I hardly know where to start. Briefly (sigh)...

    Australia is not now a white, European or colonial state.
    Indigenous Australians are not "second class citizens".
    The term "aboriginal" is a sensitive one and you ought to be careful in using it.
    Indigenous Australians have never had a "backward" or "immoral" existence, at least no more so than white Australians taken as a homogeneous mass (which is another error in itself).

    Your backhanded allegation that I "might have supported" the Stolen Generation policies of past Australian governments is untestable nonsense and just a meaningless personal slur. You ought to be above that, but you're not SAM, are you? The only ignorance I'm "anguished" by right now is yours.

    Congratulations on stating the bleeding obvious, SAM. Obviously our approaches to these matters are very very different. I'm so glad they are.

    You're right. It diminishes rape victims. It's insulting.
     
    James R, Sep 28, 2009
    #45
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    pjdude:

    I think we're in agreement on the recognition issue, then.
     
    James R, Sep 28, 2009
    #46
  10. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    I'm not denying anything. I asked you a simple question. You assert that there's a massive displacement of Palestinian people from their lands, and (presumably) a huge number of refugees. All I ask is for you to provide some details of how many of these refugees there are and where they all went.

    I don't know what to make of the fact that you seem personally affronted by the fact that I dared to ask you such a question.

    Oh, goody!

    Cheers, SAM.
     
    James R, Sep 28, 2009
    #47
  11. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Demographics the chart lists sources though in all honesty it feels a little high
     
    pjdude1219, Sep 28, 2009
    #48
  12. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    There is no compromising with the unrealistic opinion that unification of Palestinians and Israelis will lead to even a temporary peace. Such warring parties should be independent of each other, their borders clear, with the goal of normalization of relations in the future. An individual's perception of ownership of land is secondary to the basic right to live.
     
    spidergoat, Sep 28, 2009
    #49
  13. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed.
     
    S.A.M., Sep 28, 2009
    #50
  14. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    except the ideas for unification are peace first than unify
     
    pjdude1219, Sep 28, 2009
    #51
  15. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Peace can only be achieved at present with two separate states, and even that is a stretch. Once peace prevails, who would want to threaten it with further change?
     
    spidergoat, Sep 28, 2009
    #52
  16. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Peace could also be achieved by large scale genocide of either population, but thats not a sufficient incentive to suggest it, for me.

    With other people there may be differences in what they see as a necessity for peace but anyone who proposes that segregation/apartheid is a requirement for peace should not expect a desegregated society himself. Or accuse anyone else who proposes segregation for "his people". Unless of course, you have suddenly become a proponent of Jewish expulsions throughout history and agree that it was necessary to separate the Jews from other peoples to ensure peace.

    Is that a joke?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2009
    S.A.M., Sep 28, 2009
    #53
  17. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    not really. once Israel recognizes the palestinians rights and what that entails the whole conflict disappears for the most part.
    some of us want justice as well.
    supremus totus justicia
     
    pjdude1219, Sep 28, 2009
    #54
  18. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed. And not just for ourselves alone

    How can American Jews demand equality in the US and defend a system of inequality in Israel/Palestine?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Holocaust survivor Rabbi Joachim Prinz with
    other March on Washington leaders​



    And a comment from the same link; a vignette:


     
    S.A.M., Sep 28, 2009
    #55
  19. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Israel doesn't have to have equality if they don't want it. There is no equality for Jews in predominantly Islamic states either. That's why there should be two separate states. Certainly the leadership of the Palestinians has no pretense of such ideals.
     
    spidergoat, Sep 28, 2009
    #56
  20. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you note, that post is not addressing Israeli Jews. Or Islamic nations.
     
    S.A.M., Sep 28, 2009
    #57
  21. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    At one time, our Democracy was also far from perfect.
     
    spidergoat, Sep 28, 2009
    #58
  22. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    which is a reaction to what Israel did not an unrelated event.
     
    pjdude1219, Sep 29, 2009
    #59
  23. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    No, they treat most non-Muslims like that, Christians too.
     
    spidergoat, Sep 29, 2009
    #60
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