Cold fusion device in production

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by quantum_wave, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Yeah there is an element of something for nothing here . I am on board with you as far as conspirators in big oil . My feeling is the need for oil makes big oil work there butts off to provide oil . Demand supply thing . Even if this devise works oil will still be in high demand for it is the extent we are dependent on oil . The devise if it works has big implications in power supplies and electrical grids. I can see how it could work though and not really be free power , but rather the release of pent up potential in matter . I will think hocus pocus of now with one eye open . This would be great for Haiti if it works . Wait and see is the way for me . I ain't given them money that is for sure . Course if a person invested in Micro Soft when day started ? I know of some one who did . F--ck they got all the money
     
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  3. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, I agree.

    And as far as the Microsoft thing goes, just keep in mind that for every one that made tons of money on something like that, there were also tens of thousands who lost a ton of cash on pie-in-the sky stuff.

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    Conclusion? Better to wait and see than jump and suffer. And just like Microsoft, if it actually DOES work out, there will still be plenty of time to get on the bandwagon before it's fully loaded.
     
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  5. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Me too

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    . I found this recently and followed the links to find this info mentioning DOD and DOE with a slightly different twist, i.e.: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece

    Links to U.S. authorities are evident.

    The founders of Ampenergo are Karl Norwood, Richard Noceti, Robert Gentile and Craig Cassarino.

    Two of them also founded the consulting firm LTI – Leonardo Technologies Inc. – which for 10 years has been working on contracts amounting to several millions of dollars for the U.S. Defense and Energy departments, and with a recent contract with DOE amounting to 95 million dollars.

    Robert Gentile was also Assistant Secretary of Energy for Fossil Energy at the Department of Energy during the early 1990’s.

    Three of the founders have known Andrea Rossi since 1996 and have been working with him previously. Rossi also co-founded LTI, but sold his stake in the late
     
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  7. Tach Banned Banned

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    From wiki discussion page:

    "Rossi claimed to have developed novel panels with an efficiency of 16% or better. The U.S. Department of Defense was understandably interested in this technology; they contracted with an independent firm to test Rossi's TE panels. (This full report, published in 2004, is linked from the Swedish article.) Of the 27 TE panels Rossi provided for testing, 19 failed to supply any current. The remaining 8 panels, rated for 800-1000 watts, dribbled out less than 1 watt under test conditions. Despite additional tweaking of the manufacturing process and additional tests, Rossi and LTI never supplied the DOD with a panel that worked better than existing technology. Rossi has left LTI, and they now sell working (but not terribly exciting) biodiesel-fuelled internal combustion electric generators.
    This new scam scheme will follow a similar pattern. We have the same ingredients – a claim of miraculous energy output, an individual with no real track record of research in the area, a process with secret ingredients – and I expect the same result: a bunch of wasted time and (other people's) money, followed by Rossi's move to his next big money-making idea. The only real difference between the TE panels and the cold fusion is that developing efficient thermoelectric panels is at least physically plausible."
     
  8. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    I fully agree with that assessment.
     
  9. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Is Rossi jumping from venture to venture if they have enough funding to give him a paycheck? Will The E-Cat LENR fail like the LTI panels?

    I'm guessing we won't have to wait until November to find out if it is a scam because any manufacturing process has to go through production phases and tests at various points along the way and there are many opportunities for leaks from within the organization. If it is a scam and it is perpetrated until the scheduled first deliveries I imagine there will be legal ramifications, law violations, civil suits; it could be ugly. But then if it is for real ...
     
  10. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    We knew about the self-destruct mechanism and here is some related discussion:

    http://www.enerstock.com/archives/1012

    What is your take on this? Is and/or should the patent office take some of the heat for the delay?
     
  11. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    There are two ways of looking at this: First, it sounds quite reasonable that he would want to protect his "secret." BUT at the same time, it also provides an excellent excuse to delay having to produce and release the devices. A scammer needs a logical reason for delaying delivery of what he's promised. The longer they can do that, the longer the scam can run (more money for the scammer) before the cat is out of the bag.

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    So this doesn't inspire any greater trust on my part and actually only serves to increase my doubt.

    EDIT: And having said that, I can't help but notice the irony in the "cat out of the bag" and the name of the device, "E-cat." <BIG GRIN>
     
  12. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I noticed that right off, lol.

    It doesn't inspire trust, that is true and I'll mention however that Rossi has said all along that the "refueling" was to be done by the manufacturer/distributor and not by the purchaser/users, say after six months. This indicates that all along they have intended to prevent back engineering to find the "secret", even if there was no self-destruct mechanism built in. I don't think it will help sales to know that somehow the thing could self-destruct on its own if you bump it wrong, lol.
     
  13. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    And that brings on yet another thought - the devices might not be allowed to be sold in the U.S. I don't know about other countries, but I would imagine many have laws similar to the ones enforced here by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
     
  14. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,221
    Here's the thing: His patent application was already published.

    Link: http://www.google.com/patents?id=84vwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

    So all the information needed to make this device work (assuming it's possible for it to work) is already public. Unless the information needed to make the device work isn't actually in the patent application, in which case he won't get the patent anyway.

    In short, it seems to make zero sense for him to include any sort of "self destruct mechanism" to protect his secrets.
     
  15. Jarek Duda Registered Senior Member

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  16. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Yikes

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    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360&cpage=21#comments
    Rossi responds to comments by Krivit:


    Craig
    June 16th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
    Dear Mr Rossi,

    Can you respond to the recent assertions by Steven B Krivit that the method in which the steam may have been measured previously is potentially giving incorrect measurements of the power capability of the e-cat.

    Krivit says in his blog post.
    “I discussed the crucial difference in steam enthalpy calculations by mass versus by volume with Levi on Wednesday afternoon. Based on his initial response, I could not be sure if he had previously understood the potential impact.”

    I am hoping you can assure us that his concerns are invalid.

    Best regards,

    Craig



    Andrea Rossi
    June 17th, 2011 at 4:38 AM
    Dear Craig:
    Mr Krivit has understood nothing of what he saw, from what I have read in his ridiculous report… This guy has seen for half an hour an E-Cat in the factory where we make many tests, made some questions to Prof. Levi, Prof. Focardi and me. Evidently has understood nothing, perhaps for the short time we gave him, also because we have to work: maybe he is angry because we had to send him away from the closed boxes and because we had to say him good bye shortly because we have to make our work. Prof. Levi has explained very well to him how the measures have been made and the importance of the issue. He has explained very well that the percentage of uncondensed water in the steam has been measured in weight (in volume is impossible, for various reasons), and he also got confirmation of this from a specialist from whom he has taken indipendent counsel. Nevertheless, he has understood nothing, or wanted not to understand, for reasons he better knows. Our tests have been performed by Physics Professors, who know how to make measures , and I am measuring the performance every day on 300 reactors.
    In any case we will start our 1 MW plant in october and we will see how it works. Of course I assure his considerations are invalid, but I want to say more: our products on the market will confirm this. Probably this journalist has been sent by someone that wants to dwarf our work. He also tried to blackmail prof. Levi, and Levi already has given to his attorney due information .
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.


    Andrea Rossi
    June 17th, 2011 at 4:54 AM
    Dear Roger Barker:
    Please read the answer I gave to Craig:
    AGAIN : WE MADE THE MEASUREMENT OF THE WATER IN WEIGHT !!!!!!
    AND WE EXPLAINED THIS TO KRIVIT VERY WELL!!!!!
    AND HE GOT CONFIRMATION OF THIS FROM AN INDIPENDENT PROFESSOR HE CONTACTED !!!!!
    NOBODY MAKES THIS KIND OF MEASUREMENT IN VOLUME, BECAUSE IT IS A NONSENSE !!!!!
    KRIVIT SAID ” I HAVE UNDERSTOOD” WHEN I TOLD THIS DURING THE INTERVIEW.
    I HAVE MANY WITNESSES OF WHAT ABOVE ENCLOSED THE PROF. HE CONTACTED TO GET INDIPENDENT COUNSEL !!!!!
    BUT HE REPORTED THAT WE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM: WE. PHYSICS PROFESSORS OF CERN, UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA, UNIVERSITY OF UPPSALA, UNIVARSITY OF STOCKOLM, WHO MADE THE TESTS!!!!! AND HE COMES HERE TO TESCH TO US PHYSICS!!!!!!
    HE CAME TO US SMILING, VERY FRIENDLY, ACCEPTED TO BE INVITED TO GET LUNCH, ACCEPTED TAXI REMBOURSEMENT, MADE FAIR QUESTIONS, GOT PRECISE ANSWERS, AND NOW HE WRITES TOTALLY FALSE THINGS:
    THIS IS A SNAKE, NOT A JOURNALIST, AND I WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH TO KNOW WHO SENT HIM (I HAVE A PRETTY IDEA, THOUGH, SINCE HE UNADVERTEDLY GAVE US A CLUE).
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  17. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    I am moving more and more to the belief this is a scam.

    Why is he getting so angry with Krivit if the thing works, he is getting defensive and if it's real has nothing to get defensive about. He also doesn't need to try to keep convincing people who don't matter. Like those on his blog. Just focus on this 1MW plant he keeps talking about. None of these action make sense.

    There was a point in the Mats Lewan test video where I detected what I feel is a sign of fraud in Rossi's facial expression. I can only explain it by the fact that someone who has claimed to perform thousands of tests seemed to be faking his concern over how the test was going. He just seemed to be acting.

    Watch from 3:45 on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8SeOteFPtM

    I could be wrong but my job requires reading people and those facial expressions have me on liar alert.

    Another thing is the absolutely convoluted business arrangements and what appear to be one shell company after another all connected. It's almost being set up to be hard to track down when things go south.

    Too bad if this turns out to be a scam but I am pretty conviced it is at this point. Hope I am wrong.
     
  18. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    I agree with ALL of that - 100% I've been seeing things for weeks now that almost scream out "scam." Several things, actually, including that chain of shell corporations.
     
  19. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I know everyone is capable of going to this link and reading the posts there but since I am going there often I find it convenient to post some of them here for you:

    Andrea Rossi
    June 18th, 2011 at 4:02 AM
    “Rossi Responds to Scrutiny of his Claims”:
    The content of water in steam is always measured in mass, not in volume, because psychrometers work is based on the heat necessary to the evaporation ow residual water, and the heat is given in Joule/g, wherein g means grams. Krivit is not convinced only because has not the elementary knowledge of the physics involved. He had all the necessary explications from us, just did not (or wanted not) to understand. By the way: in a statement he released further, he said that while Prof. Levi told him there was a report about this issue, I said in the interview that there was not a report about this issue. This is a translation problem: with the term “report” I mean an extensive paper, while Prof. Levi referred to the simple communication that we received from the specialist who made the measurement, in which there were just the results. This is a misunderstanding, not a contradiction.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Rossi Responds to Scrutiny of his Claims » E-Cat World
    June 18th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
    [...] Asked on his website about Krivit’s report, Rossi has had strong words. He believes that they have indeed thoroughly reported on the water-in-steam issue and that Krivit has been unfair in his reporting and questioning. In the larger picture, Rossi reiterates that he is not interested in getting into any validation in the public arena: “Now I have to make my 1 MW plant, then we will make other 1 MW plants for our Customers. That’s all we will do. Our Customers tests are the sole tests that count, for us. Therefore, I have absolutely not time for competitors anxious to test my Cat to make their “validation”. Tweet [...]

    Andrea Rossi
    June 18th, 2011 at 1:02 AM
    Dear Roger Barker:
    I am not angry, I just was disappointed that, after we published repeatedly that we made the measure of steam indicating the percentage of water residue in the steam IN MASS, Mr Steve Krivit wrote that we measured it in volume, which not only is a stupidity, but is the contrary of what we explained to him. Also he, who lacks of elementary bases in Physics, has not to offend (and blackmail) a Prof. of Physics of the University of Bologna. Like the rat who teaches to the cat how to miew.
    Thank you for your kind attention,
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
     
  20. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    1,046
    Its a perfectly normal reaction to get angry when someone is lying about you and what you said and after you committed time and resources to this person, especially if your hands are clean. And he is working on it as he says in the interview.

    I am not too current with the development of the e-cat, but he has convinced the Swedish academy of sciences and several other reputable sources, so maybe it is not a scam? Rossi has at least some stains on his record, for instance with his waste to fuel project back in the 80s (or 90s?). He convinced people that the science is real, but later failed to deliver any results. Is this story going to repeat itself, or maybe Rossi has learned from his mistakes? I am not in a position to make any judgments.
     
  21. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    No one is "current" with his "project." But as far as making any judgments goes, there are LOTS of alarm bells ringing. One is that chain of shell companies and another BIG one is right out there for everyone to see: Why, oh why, would he waste so much time and effort on a blog and responding to everyone? All he should be doing is keeping his mouth shut while working on this thing and then let the device SPEAK FOR ITSELF. PERIOD.

    All of that and other things stink to high heaven!!!!
     
  22. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Federico Bellelli
    June 20th, 2011 at 6:36 AM
    Dear Mr. Rossi,
    firstly, let me congratulate my self with you, Mr. Foccardi and everyone else involved on the project that could (and hopefully will) mark the beginning of the second industrial revolution.
    Now, considering that the world revolves on petrol and on the US dollar, I would like to remind the dangers that you (and specially your E-Cat) are facing.
    I know that you are surely aware of this dangers, and that you surely keep the secrets of your machine in a safe place, but please let me underline the amazing power of petrol companies and nations that thrive from this outdated source of power (like the US)
    For example, the dollar has value mostly because it is the main currency for petrol. If petrol devalues 95% (and your E-Cat can do that), the dollar will soon follow! So it is very likely that they (US and many other nations and corporations) will do anything in their power to stop you, or, more likely, stop the E-Cat from being sold to the world.
    For example, they could buy the licence of your product, sell it, and make one “explode” and set the stage for a small scale nuclear disaster. I know this is impossible, but remember that masses are stupid by definition and spreading terror towards the E-Cat is as easy as drinking a glass of water.
    I think we should all pray for the best and prepare for the worst.

    Sincerely yours,
    Federico Bellelli

    Rossi hasn't replied to Bellelli yet, but he does raise an interesting question about the US dollar if e-Cat proves out. He says that LENR would quickly change the energy generation profile which would destabilize the dollar.

    But I wonder if there wouldn't be off setting benefits to energy consumers, and if so the US consumers would greatly benefit. Wouldn't it revitalize our economy as consumers redirect their energy dollars to other spending which might mean more of it stays home in the US instead of going to the pockets of the oil producers?
     
  23. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely. There are *plenty* of other uses for oil and oil products. Besides, the e-cat (if it's even real) would have little impact on the transportation industry. One off-handed reason is that I would not drive a vehicle with a trunk full of devices with a destruct mechanism inside each one!! Quite a more clear and present danger than a tank full of gasoline.

    The only real destabilization would occur (eventually!) in the OPEC countries. This little joker is nothing but another chicken little (the sky is falling) like the ones that claimed the oil industry assassinated all the guys who "invented" the 100 mpg carburetors. He's just a conspiracy-theory crank. :shrug:
     

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