Classic Chomsky: Education as the indoctrination of the young

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Magical Realist, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Does ALL education fall under this definition? Who decides what knowledge and information shall be taught as objective truth? Are young people being trained to be unquestioning sheep who must conform to the system in order to "succeed"? You decide!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo
     
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I think the way this is posed is somewhat question-begging.

    Education at advanced level rarely presents material as "objective truth". The teaching of differing points of view, of differing interpretations and, in the sciences of different models, is commonplace in our 6th forms, is it not?

    But this can only be done once the ability to analyse, criticise and discriminate between alternatives has itself been taught. Before this point, at basic level, these subtleties are not taught, obviously. But it's paranoid in my opinion to chuck around pejorative expressions like "indoctrination" simply on account of this. We have standards and inspections to ensure silly ideas are not taught on a wide scale.

    By the way Chomsky must be older than God's dog. I thought he was dead.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Noam Chomsky will be 85 in December 2013. Sorry, there's no Wikipedia article on God's dog.
     
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  7. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    The point he wishes to make is for children to understand linguistics, philosophy, and human/animal behaviors before they go into math, science, and politics. Mainly because the first three are individual perspectives of emotion and the later are collective ideologies.
     
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The best education creates individuals who can challenge the temporal "truth", in favor the future "truth". If education is about making follower of temporal truth, using the blind faith of a pseudo-religion, it is better to have them memorize, obey and condemn anyone who tries to challenge the temporal "truth".

    Teaching people to think for themselves makes leaders insecure. The more insecure they become the more they need to micro-manage ot make sure there is no chance of self reliance against the status quo.
     
  9. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    "Advanced level"? I leaned the scientific method in junior high, in the first real science course I took in school. Apparently, Chomsky hasn't learned it yet though [shrug]. Yep, classic Chomsky.
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    If that's really what he's arguing for, then he must be going senile, finally. Children cannot be expected to grasp the abstraction of philosophy and linguistics until mid teens. One has to start with the simple "certainties" that children look for from their parents and other adults, and then develop the more nuanced approach from there, afterwards.
     
  11. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    Behaviorism and philosophy are closely related. The only main difference being philosophy is a string of linguistics pre-cognizant that guides children through experience while behaviorism just denotes how one should act in the experience today. Religion poorly mixes the two. Philosophy today is poorly understood and underdeveloped. Philosophers use tactics to teach adults to be children which in turn teaches adults how to raise children by thinking for oneself.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Math is a collective ideology? Linguistics is an individual perspective of emotion?

    I doubt Chomsky (a formal and quite mathematical linguist) said anything like that - can anyone with video access and common sense describe what he did say?

    As far as education involving a significant amount of indoctrination in practice, of course it does. It is also the main way of bootstrapping oneself out of one's indoctrinated cultural limitations.
     
  13. ananymousse Banned Banned

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    I'm not really describing what he says, just the reasons he might say syntax is helpful in deriving intelligent forms of communication.
     
  14. Stanley Registered Senior Member

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    So he was indoctrinated?

    Personally I cannot think of any instances that would remotely constitute indoctrination when i was sitting in a classroom.
     
  15. Stanley Registered Senior Member

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    Indoctrination is too strong a word for lessons. When your parents taught you how to wash your body, how to eat, how to act in public were they indoctrinating you?

    Maybe he means teaching evolution theory is indoctrination but I really dont think it is.
     
  16. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @Stanley --

    Depending on the definition you're using for "indoctrination" the answer will change.
     
  17. Stanley Registered Senior Member

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    Did you really think it was necessary to post the definition? LOL........
     
  18. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @Stanley --

    Yes, I do. Especially given the fact that one definition would lead to a "yes" answer to your previous question and the other would lead to a "no" answer. Both definitions are correct, both are accurate, so in a discussion like this it is vitally important to clarify one's terms. This helps avoid unnecessary conflict by making sure that everyone understands what you mean when you speak.
     
  19. Stanley Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, then it was necessary. Can you give us an example of the word used in the first instance?
     
  20. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @Stanley --

    The link I posted earlier gives examples of both.
     
  21. Stanley Registered Senior Member

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    The link gives an actual example of it used in the second way. I did take it for granted the way i used it in my earlier post, technically i was wrong. Still i have never seen it or heard it used as a synonym for teaching fundamentals. Guess it is just one of those bizarre anomalies in life.
     
  22. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I have a good teaching example, of this topic based, on current events. Have you noticed lately that global warming has been rebranded or repackaged and is now called climate change? The reason is the hard data clearly indicates that the earth has not warmed in the past two decades even though large countries like India and China have been building huge economies with fossil fuel. The rebranding, like the new and improved Coke, was needed because even the layman could see that the latest data did not support the old branding, even though many of the young scientists, would still blindly follow the old brand regardless of the facts.

    The climate change brand was chosen because it is more nebulous, since weather has always been fickle and there is always something unpredictable happening somewhere. Global warming was too specific, while the new brand called climate change is fuzzy. Since the global warming brand was taken away, did the consensus who supported the old brand apologize to all the scientists who risked it all for the truth that finally appeared? Did the hacks at the top, who led the old brand get demoted, and were they replaced by those scientists who showed character under fire and who got it right based on history? The answer is no because of brain dead young scientists, who were never taught to think in an independent way by the scammers who rebranded themselves like a bankrupt company trying to avoid debt.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It's not too strong a word for indoctrination, though - which commonly accompanies lessons, at least in the schools I've attended and seen. Things like the Pledge of Allegiance, say.

    That is false. Blatantly and obviously false.

    Not only false, but quite stubbornly stupid. You not only have to carefully preserve a level of factual ignorance very difficult to maintain in the face of the innumerable corrections and opportunities for learning presented to you here and throughout the public discourse on this topic, but you have to prevent your brain from reasoning automatically from the facts you do admit to your consciousness.
     

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