Christians - Your Testimonies Please

C20,

LOL – nice try; and definite value in your approach. I will follow up a little later with some more detail.

Kat

 

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kat

show me your objectivity by outlining the positive impact christianity played in the development of human societies. can you envisage a situation in which these fantasies are not harmful but rather beneficial to the individual?

if you do so in satisfactory manner, i will withdraw the allegation and apologize.

as of now, the "excessive enthusiasm" fits you to a tee.

these can be construed as abusive attacks. they automatically belittle and devalue any poster that responds to the topic post.

it is the personalities that interest me in this subforum, not the issues. on the one hand, you have the best intellects that sciforums has to offer posting here. on the other, you have the religious retards. a very curious mix.

it seem to me however, that all are on a mission from....(insert here)!

i think attacks merely serve to radicalize. caution is advised.

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Ok I will try. I think you have to put 'Religion' into context. Religion covers groups of people who usually share some idea that a higher power influences their existence. There are other types of religion but I think we all know what we are talking about in principal.
Anyway, 'Christianity' is a religion. Some people become Christians for all sorts of different reasons. Some people because they have experiences like I described, some people cos they have grown up with parents who were Christians, some cos they just picked up a bible one day and read the stuff about this guy going round talking about God and love and about how they nailed him to a tree for saying stuff like that. Some 'Christians' beg for money on the tv and internet and they tell you that God will love you more if you give them the money. Theres lots of different 'Christians' because there are lots of different people.
If you look at a body of people who call themselves Christians, you are never going to get a clear picture of Jesus who is the central figure of that particular 'religion'. You just have this 'rabble of Christians' ( can I copyright that collective noun please

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).
Unfortunately 'religion' as a positive thing in the world is barely visible. We see people on the news representing 'Religous' groups all the time. We see the priest getting put in jail for abusing children, we see planes blown out of the sky in the name of Allah (God), we see stumps where childrens limbs were because this man decided God told him to strap 15 lbs of semtex to his chest and walk into a crowded shopping centre cos it had a fricken Mac Donalds in it and everyone knows God hates those burger eating capitalist pig dog Yanks and so he detonated it shouting 'Praise Allah'.
Everyone ends up thinking that this whole Religion thing is full of freaks. If anyone talks about religion the immediate response is to do the mind association thing which goes 'religion' = 'deluded nutters causing mayhem evil and death'.
Strip away the rabble for one moment and focus on 'Johnny'. Johnny is sitting by the river one day and he has just got divorced. He is sad. After their baby daughter died they both fell apart so badly that they could no longer support eachother emotionally. Things went from bad to worse. Johnny blames God for this. He hates God. As he contemplates suicide he has a vision. Johnny has never been religious but now he has an outstretched image of Jesus before his closed eyes and inside him he feels like his inner being is being cleansed and his pain and hurt is lifted. His bitterness leaves him and over time he learns to accept his new circumstances. Each day he wonders about that day when he had the vision. He secretly gives thanks to Jesus every day for helping him back from the brink of despair. If people ask what religion he is, Johnny says I am a Christian. People say 'Why are you a Christian?' and Johnny tells his story.

Johnny knows Jesus personally. Johnny is a Christian. What kind of Christian is Johnny? Can you spot him in the rabble? Can you hear what Jesus actually said in that rabble?

Johnny's story will never hit the News Channel. What is Johnny's story? Oh yeah 'God touched his life and it was good... it HELPED him. Johnny truly believes that

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. Johnny calls himself a Christian because he has come to read more about Jesus and he follows His teachings'. What are Jesus' teachings? Did that get lost in the rabble too?

In short Religion is a word whose meaning has become more and more synonymous with bigotry and hatred over time wheras 'Jesus' is a personal Savior to some and the key figure in a Religious Book called The Bible.

Peace

c20 :m:

 

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C20, I grew up in a Christian home and stuff, but right now I'm kind of have an agnostic belife because I'v had thoughts like Johnny's, but instead I wonder why would a loving God let someone experiance this type of torment? Have you? It's is the worst thing a person could go through. You live every day yet you aren't really alive and you can't really die. Your just going through the motions but numb to everything and you just want it to all go away. I understand that with Eden everything went downhill and so "sin" is just allowed by God not endorsed, but still.

 

Depression is a terrible thing and I have suffered from it after a divorce with a child involved

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. I had a very hard time with my faith at this time. I had similiar feelings of blaming God for his inactivity when 'He was God for God's sake he could easily sort this out.'.
After nine months of hell and dark depression ( my first wife commited adultery with my good friend btw), I met my partner of now 10 yrs. She is a very kind woman and an excellent mother. She is also an excellent stepmother to the daughter from my first marraige.
All the time that I blamed God for not 'sorting it out' I was aware of the irony. Who was I to tell God when stuff should happen and what should happen? I still maintained some reverence however, my earlier testimony still a powerful reminder of how powerful God really was. I think God watches out for you even if He knows you are not going to be back for a while

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I still don't understand how you know for certain that you can trust Him?

 

Oh c'mon, gimme a break. Using rape is in no way comparable to the "tolerance" of the beliefs people here are sharing. It's one thing where one may not agree with someone's POSITIVE beliefs due to lack of proof and being respectful to it, but that doesn't mean the person is tolerable to ALL beliefs. That's the key thing, people here are sharing POSITIVE experiences, not something such as rape. So since it's POSITIVE, there should be some R-E-S-P-E-C-T given for their beliefs, even if one may not agree with them. If one doesn't give respect for positive beliefs because one doesn't agree with them, that must mean you're the opposite in that you're an evil person. Why else would one not be respectful to ones positive beliefs? Now if someone was talking about evil and other hateful religious stuff that you don't agree with, then go ahead and let that agreesive defense kick in but c'mon, when nobody is trying to cause harm here, STFU.

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Uh, no. Taking one word of a definition and applying that to the whole definition is well, a sad and pathetic attempt at trying to make someone look bad. If one is going to bold cetain words to show the meaning of a fanatic, "excessive" and "intense" are the key words. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't just bold "enthusiasm" and "devotion".

Yes, you have. In fact, you were the one to throw the first blows before anything bad was said by anyone else.

Oy, I can't believe I'm defending ya Christians. Save meeee!

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- N

 

Sick religious fantasies? When I read that, this came immediately to mind.

Here

 

Because whoever is for you cannot be against you. I asked Jesus to show himself to me and he did through His spirit. The spirit healed me and set me on a better path. Lots of people in my life who know me would testify that this was the truth irrespective of their own personal beliefs or non-beliefs.
Jesus became my Ally. You trust your allies?

 

It takes a long time for me to trust people. It's something that must be earned. Don't you ever feel like you owe him something, I mean, God sent His Son supposedly, so if this is true, and you say that He becomes your friend, then arn't you kind of eternally in debt to him?

 

Another good question and it will help me explain the mistake many born again Christians make after receiving God's Spirit in their lives.

The sacrifice that you speak of is pretty mad. I actually find it quiet difficult to take at face value and the theology of it gets quite intricate when you look at it in any detail however if you are a bit of a simpleton like me you just try and find out what your debt is for this massive thing that you dont quite understand. The message Jesus has for us is 'the debt you have is to eachother. love one another.' That kind of makes sense to me

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The mistake new Christians make is thinking they have to go out and convert everybody just as they have been. They feel this is the debt they have to Christ and immediately want to repay that debt. They are massivly unprepared for the questions and cynicism that follows and end up with the wind taken out of their sails very quickly.
It takes a long time from that point of humility and rejection to realise that the first debt we have to Christ is to just love one another. By our actions we will show people the Love of Christ and because we are Christians we will be an example of our faith in our daily lives. Athiests and agnostics may then be able to see past the religous hypocrisy which cripples faith and 'may' look into the matter further.

peace

c20 :m:

 

how do you define a born-again Christian? What exactly does that term mean?

 

Stupid moron.

 

"Stupid moron" - Verbose or not? Discuss

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peace

c20 :m:

 

c20, you have the most sober view of Christianity I've come across in a long time. It's refreshing. I get involved in complex theological issues so often that I sometimes forget to appreciate what faith looks like where it matters. I'm learning a lot from you.

 

Just my testimony on being born again, for what it's worth:

It's the opposite of taking your own life - it's letting the life of God take you. It reminds me of the litany against fear (from Dune):

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.​

I will face my death and my suffering.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn my spiritual eye to see its path.
Where death and suffering has gone there will be life.
Only eternal life remains.

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
1 Peter 1:23

 

Wow thats cool to hear, thanks.
I'm amazed anyone can learn anything from me tho - my knowledge of scripture is poor I have to be honest. The Spirit is cool though in bringing stuff to mind when needed even if it comes out in my own muzzy style

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.

Yours in Christ

c20 :m:

 

C20

Like Jenyar, I was also quite drawn in by your postings & responses to the others who are critical of your testimony and to the ones who have questions about the event that you say has had an effect on your life. At the very least you seem to be showing respect to others who have different viewpoints.

However, my questions to you are these: What do you think (or feel or believe) happened to you that time? What fact can you point to that will support what you think (or feel or believe) happened to you? Have you ever thought another explanation could rationally explain what happened to you at that time other than what you think (or feel or believe)?

 

Jen: Amen! c20, you've managed to imrpess someone I've always been impressed by. Thats impressive

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Good questions again and I will try and be as objective as possible.
:bugeye:

What do I 'think' happened to me ...
I think that God chose me to receive His spirit.
I could not receive that Spirit and begin my life as a new creation unless I actually invited Jesus into my life. This was something that under normal circumstances I was very very unlikely to do. I was way too caught up in the world and its vices to think about hokey pokey Jesus and his bible bashing fanatics.
When the 'fanatics' came into my house, I could not deny that they were not fanatics but just ordinary people with a story to tell similiar to my own. They were OK, friendly enough but there was nothing about them that made me want to get down and praise the Lord. Frustration took me to that point where I took all my doubts to 'Jesus' and asked him to show me hiself despite my doubts etc. At the time that I did, my pure understanding was that this was utter madness and nothing was gonna happen. I had no expectations at all. Truthfully I expected no miracle, no voice in my mind, no healing nothing. I actually wanted to say 'OK lads I feel better now.' just so they would get me the hell home. I think God poured out his Spirit on me when I took my doubts to Jesus. I gave Him an invitation and He kept His promise and responded. Thats what I think happened. I cannot fully explain the experience either in physical terms or mental / feeling terms because it is just so hard to do. I felt like I had been plucked from the world and had become immersed in a river of blood. The blood washed over me, warm and thick and as it did it penetrated everything that I was both physically and emotionally. I must have lost physical consciousness briefly because I fell backwards but I was not afraid and I was 'awake' in my mind all the time. There was nothing to be afraid of anymore - I felt like this was the end of my life, I was dead and yet there was so much more and the more was better. I remember feeling like such a dick because I had not believed and I remember hearing / feeling that I should not beat myself up about this because God was so happy I had come home.

Heres a whole bunch of Holy Spirit outpouring references from the bible ..

http://www.bibletopics.com/topics/366.htm

Thats what I think happened to me.

What facts can I say point to my being a new creation after being baptised in the Spirit ...

Well...

This may be a little glib but my old self prior to this event would have 'well taken the piss' out of Christians on a SciForums type website. I would have loved to try and kick their feeble religous walking sticks away from them. I just couldnt do that now because of this deep conviction I have of the truth. I probably would have killed the wife who cheated on me along with my cheating friend. I had never been known for my tolerance of people who betrayed me. I could give examples but it would not be appropriate or substantiated. What I am trying to say is my nature changed after that day. Not all in one go but after time as I learned new things about myself and God. I started hating the things I loved to do such as ripping those easy to knock over Christian types and I started to love the things I hated to do such as being 'selfless'. I was very selfish before the event.
I suffered my divorce. Really suffered. I suffered because I was being forcebly seperated from my daughter who had become everything to me. The new love that was in my heart found so much time for my daughter.
Rather than being angry as I would have once been, I wrestled that anger with God. Why build me up to knock me down? I came to understand that my ex wife could do as she pleased and God was there to support me in my pain, not force my ex wife to be faithful to me. When i came to understand that I was able to see my daughter again and be stable for her.
I appreciate these facts are unsubstatiated. Hopefully you will take me at my word

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And now for the interesting one ...

Have you ever thought another explanation could rationally explain what happened to you at that time other than what you think (or feel or believe)?

Of course!!! Boy I had taken enough psychedelics to make a Shaman sit down and wonder wtf it was all about. My rational mind ( please dont let me be a Christian!) wanted to present a 'flashback' as the most probable cause of the event but this caused major internal conflict. If it was a flashback how had I had a revelation about the blood? How come I felt 'better' after the experience? Why was my mind clearer than it had been in years? Why did I see people in a different light? Those happy clappy Christians no longer looked like disjointed people with nothing better to do on a Sunday, they looked happy and 'United'. My eyes were open to a number of things like that. I had always viewed people like that with a degree of suspicion, in fact I held most people in contempt such was my arrogance. The arrogance had left me. This was not the case on drugs. Drugs fuelled my arrogance typically.
I tried again to rationalise ( Christians are ridiculed for God's sake - please dont let this be true) that how was I to know the effects of drugs on my mind long term? This could be drugs, had to be drugs!! But it wasnt.
I am a changed person. Changed from the inside out. Drugs dont make you a better person and whilst not perfect (no where near lol ) I think I am a better person than I was before my experience. Again close friends would testify to this. Some even offered their lives to Christ as a result of seeing the change in me and as a result are themselves changed.

I hope I answered your questions correctly. If I have missed anything please let me know.
peace

c20 :m: