Can animals(non humans) lie?

But you have still it.

Yes. You missed a bit back there about evolution it seems.

 

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What don't we know for sure ?

 

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I can agree with this almost 100%, I would need more time to ponder on the word "utility" in this context more though.

 

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Look, we have the ability of abstract thinking, that makes us logical beings.
If you choose not to think abstract (which is as impossible as not using your language skills.. even if you don't speak) you still have the ability to do so, and thus are still a logical beings.

 

That insects are self aware.

My observations suggest that they are, very much so in fact.

 

Well I think in this case utility would be synonymous with surviveability, reproduceability.

For the most part I follow the Dawkin's gene logic, except that I don't think its ever been properly explained why humans are so much more than the Apes, (except perhaps by Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C Clarke).

 

There is little chance that they are though, but no we don't know for sure.
What you observed has nothing to with self-consciousness. It's like pulling back you hand when you touch something hot.

 

Are they ? They aren't..

 

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A very good point. 2001 is in my top 5.

 

Well, Apes may be nicer people but humans do have longer lives, greater intellectual capacity, stuff like that. But on the face of it humans 'should' need to be only slightly superior, to the next Ape, in fact they are enourmously superior, why?

 

That's predictable. I think unpredictablity exists in the insect world.

 

They are not enormously superior. That tiny little change in our brain structure and chemistry just opened up Pandora's box. The potential was always there, even in Chimps.
My opinion anyway.

Compare feral children and trained apes, then who's the superior one lol

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Dude you are making no sense. The fact that you cannot predict it doesn't mean they aren't just responses to stimuli.

 

I need to go away and think on this, thanks.

 

I'm off too for now. :wave:

 

That is your opinion, and I'll respect it.

We'll leave it at that.

 

I'm just saying that we don't know, you think this or that but we don't know.
I'm of the opinion that insects are probably not self-aware.

Agreed, all we can do at this point is state opinions on this matter.

 

Ape human brain differences

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020412/ai_n12607755

 

From Science Daily

For sure, just one tiny change..

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Answer to thread question is: "Yes" some can and do.

Threat is too long to check back so I will be brief:

Monkeys have different alarm cries to warn others in the group. (Large eagle threating to take a baby vs. hidden snake, or approaching tiger etc. are all different alarm cries as these threats require different action by the group.) Following has been observed and well documented in video recording:

One troop with slow moving member came upon a small patch of berries in open field. That slow member gave the "tiger alarm" and the others all ran to and scampered up some distant trees while he calmly ate berries.