So when Jesus says, Father forgive them, he's talking to himself in the third person?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Ah I see. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I was under the impression that Christians thought of the Father Son and Holy Spirit as 3 separate personas.
Well, exactly. That's where the questions regarding this... NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ...come in. In Leviticus, it is said that you can beat your wife with a rod, provided that it is no thicker than your thumb. It says you should be stoned for saying the name of Jehovah. It says you need to be Kosher. It says a lot of things that are outright rejected by "Christianity". Some of these things Jesus specifically mentioned and overturned, such as... NIV Matthew 15:10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " Many of the other parts of The Law he did not directly address. He spent a lot of time rebuking the Pharises and thier hypocrisy (even pointing out some hypocrisy within the law itself) but he claimed to not be overturning the law.
Sam, Trinitarians claim that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three different aspects or manifestations of the same being.
You obviously know nothing or very little about your own religion and absolutely nothing about the other. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Both religions talk about the very same thing. In fact, muslims share your entire scriptures. They only add a little bit more at the end. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Let's quiz you. When and who wrote the King James Version? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yeah I imagine that's where the whole rejection of Judaism thing hits pretty hard. I wouldn't be doing any pogroms over it, obviously, but I guess I'd take the Christian version. Most parsimonious to just generally apply "turn the other cheek"?
I think you could argue that they do. And maybe they are. But is Jesus talking "to himself"? I dunno. I mean, it would be kind of hard for Matthew and so forth to record that "and then Jesus thought in his head "You know, these guys are idiots but I'm going to forgive them anyway" ". But then it would be less parsimonious for a God not to simply do what he wanted, eh? Chalk it up to making a sign? Why would there be any signs? Yet, it's said there are. This is why if I go with anything I go with a semi-Gnosticism.
But, why woudl he ask himself why God had forsaken him? The more I look into it, the more I see that the Trinity has no foundation in the teachings of Jesus. He never even called himself divine - in fact, he went out of his way to state that he was no different than anyone else, and we are all the children of God. This is pretty much what the Muslims believe about Jesus, as far as I understand it - Sam, is that right?
But he also said that no one came to the Father except through him. "My Father" sayeth he. God came unto Mary, etc etc. If part of Jesus is divine, he can't be some other god. "Before Abraham was, I am" and so on.
I honestly interpret that as him saying that the only way to get to heaven is to follow me - to follow my teachings - to accept what I am saying as truth. Huh? :bugeye: The whole "virgin birth" thing does seem to put a kink into it, I'll admit that, but there is the fact that the word that was translated to virgin was "young woman" in Hebrew, and the fact that "vigin" meaning "never had sex" is a puritanical extrapolation. "Virgin" meant simply "pure" and the idea was that a woman who had sex before marriage was impure. In fact, I searched for a long time for a word that denoted "never having had sex" and couldn't find one (as opposed to the connotation of the word). Do you know of one? There is something I could never quite grasp about that one. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I have never gotten around to researching the Hebrew text and trying to understand exactly what was meant by "I am".
One thing that bafles me about people who say Allah is different to the christian and jewish god because muslims do not believe in the trinity,jesus as son of god and so on, the thing is, Jews do not believe in the trinity nor accept jesus (atleast the muslims accept jesus as a prophet) yet they supposedly believe in the same god ? is'nt there a contradiction here ? The other point is,even arab christians in palestine/isreal refer to god as Allah so for example in places like bethlehem and even nazerath the word used for god is ALLAH even by christians so how dare these so called christians from the west tell us Allah is a different god !!
I have to agree with sandy, Allah is not the same as the NT God Jesus called the "Father"....it's pretty obvious...rather Allah is the same as the Deutronomic God of the OT...the God of Moses...Jesus came to fulfill the and bring back the law...the law which is the truth...
Umm, so how many gods are there? The god of the NT, the OT and Allah, or just NT and OT? Where do (and how do) the NT and OT gods differ? One of them lied?
You're right...I'm only agreeing with her to a certain extent... The OT God is definitely Allah...the same evil God of Yave...the vengeful, jealous, war-like one.... There's only one God... Allah and OT God are not really God....it is God who is within you, who is formless, etc...that is who Allah and OT God is...as Moses says "No man has seen God, nor can see"...the Divine Qu'ran also describes Allah as being formless and causeless, etc... The Father Jesus spoke of is the one in heaven...a physical being.....he is the king of kings, the lord of lords, the best of all Buddhas (or supremely enlightened ones), the immeasurable light, etc...
NOTE: I may have posted this in the wrong thread, i just picked one, i thought it was common knowledge that it is the same God. MODS: dont delete this post. This is EVERYTHING John99 knows. Culled from centuries of knowledge. Use this information wisely/ http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=68172&page=4 ------------------------------- love\hate, good\bad, sickness\health, success\failure, male\female seems more in tune with the scheme of things, more logical. what about this is so hard to understand? yet they worship imposters and their theories so readily. I am wary of anything that relies so heavily on perception, and why should Jesus' earthly form be that important? There is a great chance you are right though/ Have you seen these song lyrics? She broke down and let me in Made me see where I've been (finally when all hope seemed lost) Been down one time Been down two times I'm never going back again You don't know what it means to win Come down and see me again (for some this is the only way) John: Yes it is possible to insult someone for that reason, how much more proof do you need? There is no reason anyone should be ridiculed for their beliefs. PERIOD>>>> Here is my perspective and experience, tell me where i am wrong and feel free to add corrections..... 1. Shroud of Turin- I could accept it being fake but if you look at it subjectively, you may be seeing the closest artifact which is a miracle that in our technologically advancedPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! society cannot even be shown as to how it was produced, let alone replicated. As far as i know it has never been reproduced as other masterpieces have been and sold as forgeries too. Hard to believe some midievil artist did this given the tools available at the time and do you believe if it could have been done that long ago it would be able to be done today? seems easy to understand unless all you want to do is not believe it then go ahead. I know aLL the arguments made against organised religion but push aside your bias and look at the facts. 2. Manifestation(s) What i saw with my own two eyes and what i felt change, i never read OT, NT, this scroll that scroll, i believed in myself at one time, and that is all but what i saw that morning will stay with me forever....i know what i saw, there was nothing left to the imagination at all 'It' saved my life and healed the damage that was done. I did stay behind for a reason, it gave me the option to leave that is what would have happened. This is not where you want to be, it is much better to wait, you will see, i know this option is not made availible in all circumstances, i think because i did not go and try to kill myself or was at the hand of another (fate???) but i made a mistake....thats all. Forgiveness...what else is there to say? That is where it ended, this was no luck, and i know i am not special or anything- just gave me another chance - told me what i had to do to not die right there on that floor (i did not want to die, i did put myself there though..in a way) i know that was a big part of it....so now. A hallucination, they will say, never had one before or after though. Yes it communicated to me, told me it's over and i will live if i wanted to and it told me with no doubt who it was or who's will it was acting on...that was very clear. The only thing i can say is i am here, and so many of my friends are not:shrug: It did more but what it did i just dont know...how do you take someone dying and reverse everything that brought it on? like being in the palm of someones hand, like a new born baby lying on its mothers chest- women i have no doubt are closer to God, this i am sure- life has the potential to be created inside them...they sustain life, literally and figuratively, things happen for a reason...we should just accept this and know that we have limitations, thats just the way it is. I really like the lyrics to this song, you know inspiration comes from many places and sometime we go on and never even know where it came from, the hand of fate is on me now. She broke down and let me in Made me see where I've been Been down one time Been down two times I'm never going back again You don't know what it means to win Come down and see me again I know it sounds crazy but it was as clear as this monitor in front of my face. thats all. well that happened ten years ago and it wont go away but it is not that big of a deal.
"The whole country's got a fucked up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are fucking idiots. Democrats are fucking idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots. Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a fucking fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I'm a conservative! I'm a liberal! I'm a conservative! It's bullshit! Be a fucking person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion. No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some shit I'm conservative about, I got some shit I'm liberal about. Crime - I'm conservative. Prostitution - I'm liberal." --Chris Rock
