Black Americans should be pissed!

5 points for Working Class Hero.

Race is only an issue insofar as current discrimination goes. Most poor blacks are poor because their parents were... NOT because they were personally discriminated against.

 

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Most poor blacks are poor because their parents were... NOT because they were personally discriminated against.


Granted but the question posed you you is why were their parents, their grandparents,etc. Poor? It's simple cause and effect, we are only dealing with effects here.

 

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Right, and GW Bush is a supergenius.

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They already have. I guess you forgot to turn on the TV or look at most movies. Most entertainment is white supremist. Sure there are some movies that are not white supremist, but the vast majority are unintentional(or perhaps intentional) products of a white supremist culture that has a long way to go in racial equality. A culture that is very far from racial neutralization.

Blacks taking advantage of whites?
I suppose you believe that most of the people controlling the country in the whitehouse and congress are black, and the majority of people in jail and doing the hard labor for just enough pay so that they can keep themselves alive to continue working are white?
I don't know what camera you are using, but this is what I get when I take a picture:
The president, just about everybody in congress and government, and the richest most powerful people in this country are WHITE.
The majority of the people that do all of the hard work for them for barely any pay are: BLACK.
Who's taking advantage of who now?

We'll shut up as soon as the white supremists stop using us to do all of their dirt for them.

 

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You act as if it's that easy.

 

Sure the horrors that the black slave experienced were not experienced by you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be upset about the way you are being treated today.

Of course they shouldn't be happy no American no matter what the circumstances should be happy because somebody was abused and oppressed.


Here's just one of tons of scenarios most white people are unaware of:
You have no job, and go to the labor pool.
They tell you that they have a job for you at $12 per hour.
They give you a hard hat, some gloves, and some boots. They tell you to get in a van.
The van takes you to the loading dock along with a few other workers.
The marina requires an identification badge for everybody working there.
They take your picture, and the labor pool pays the $20 fee for each worker that needs a badge.
Some of the workers already have a badge because they already worked at the docks before.
You walk all the way from the front of the marina to the dock you will be working on.
You begin loading/unloading, sweeping soot, and doing other difficult tasks.
The person in the van said that somebody will be there in the morning to pick you up after 12 hours.
You work for a full 12 hours, and wait 3 more hours for the late van to arrive.
You get back to the labor pool office.
You are expecting a check for at least $144 for the 12 hours you worked at $12 per hour.
Instead, you get a check for $25.62.
Why?
The person that told you that you would be paid $12 per hour now tells you he never said that. He tells you that when he said 12, he was referring tot he number of hours you would be working.
You are really getting paid $5.15 per hour for 12 hours. Unfortunately, they made you believe you were getting paid $12 because they probably had the feeling you wouldn't take the job at $5.15.
Then there is the $20 fee deducted from your paycheck for the identification badge.
On top of that is 10% for taxes based on your earnings before the $20 deduction.
What can you do about it? Nothing because you can barely read and write. Much less even understand the calculations that were given to you. You trust their calculations, but the check still seems to little. But you can't do anything about it because you are no intelligent enough to file a complaint and they know this.

 

It doesn't really matter why in this case. Knowing that it was because their parents was discriminated in no way helps the kids. If someone is relatively poor and uneducated there is a problem. It doesn't matter if this is because:
Group A) there parents were not allowed to get good jobs because they were black
Group B) there parents couldn't get good jobs because they were stupid/lazy/unlucky

The kids are still in the same exact place. They were unlucky enough to be born to parents with little money. That's it... and that's the place to help.

Exactly. There are many causes which can put kids in a situation with poor parents (as listed above). The cause (hundreds of years of discrimination) is besides the point. Yes, it is bad. Yes, we should strive to stop the discrimination that continues. No, black people should not get benefits simply for being black (exempting cases of discrimination). Yes, people unlucky enough to be born into a bad situation should be helped. Not all black people are born into a bad situation, and not all people born into a bad situation are black.

Current racism is not the reason today's blacks are poor. It's because they are relatively uneducated due to their parents being poor. There is no reason Group A should be treated any different from Group B.

 

Oh isn´t it? Why can you not just rally those of same misfortune and do something about it?

Given, I do not know how bad the situation is, or how hard it can be to make a change when you are in a society that is as unforgiving and vicious as the US.
And I do not know enough about your governmenting issues, but where I live, people can petition the government for a change of laws when they have enough people to back them up. Perhaps a petition for funds or other help, and the government would likely give in.

Also, demonstrations can make politicians think about certain issues, when enough voice their disconcern, they will be forced to make some changes.

On second thought, some party or another would use the support of a mistreated group to gather votes for the next election and will then make changes.

But I suppose something like that is not possible in the US, is it? I mean, the issue is there for some time now, and it could have been changed for decades now.

 

This is not a black problem. This is a problem across our society. By giving blacks extra benefits you are in no way helping the people you are talking about. They are still uneducated, poor, and unable to take advantage of the benefits there to help them.

You need to help poor/uneducated people.... not black people.

 

Concerning the black Americans, I found this article from the New York times somewhat interesting. It deals with "interracial" differences, differences between those blacks whose ancestors were slaves and those who immigrated from Africa at a later time.

(To follow the link directly you need a member account at the NY Times, the account is free, but I will attach the article as a HTML document for those who do not want to sign up)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/national/29african.html?pagewanted=1&hp

(Oops, no HTML as attachment... will make it a *.doc file, but better open the file with a web browser anyway.)

 

Snipped a bunch to get back on topic...

What those graphs say is single parent households in Black America are increasing at a rate that is astounding in the least. And that is Black Americas responsiblity, not mine. Again, across the board, single parent familys do not thrive as well as two parent homes economically, scholastically, and in almost every other measure of success that income numbers reflect, no matter what their race is. As you can see the poverty rate in “Black America” has fallen and continues to fall but not as fast as it theoretically should have. You presume this is about race, I assert its other factors.

With jobs moving away, it just follows that the greatest impact will be in communities of high tax, high crime and high social welfare. And being as business is moving to places such as india, china, japan, mexico, and lower taxed areas of america, it seems clear enough to me that its about profit rather than race (as I understood what you were implying). Profit... not race.

If cities/states/countries tax the business at a rate that drives them out, how exactly is that something that affirmative action programs address?

If it was profitable to employ Black America in the city, it would happen. But with all the factors against profit (high taxes, high crime, high single parent homes impacting the work force) in the very communities you claim should be angry, one can conclude that the problem is simply there isn’t a profit motivation for business to spend money investing in this community who you claim should be pissed.

I never said people were not moving out of the cities. What I did say was it was simply for a better life. A family profit not measured in dollars. And business followed because of cheap labor, cheap taxes, less governmental regulation, and room to expand. That is what I said. Unless you want to make moving up in the world against the law, it seems the issues in Black America need to reflect that which is lacking. And that is a profitable reason to invest in Black America.

All these programs to “lift Black America” out of poverty and yet the violent crime rate has outdistanced the college graduation rates 10 fold? So, who should black america be pissed at?

What exactly are you saying? You want to discriminate against the wealthy now? The "you already got enough so you cant go to school?" If that kid has only a 15% chance of graduating, but the kid next to him has a 30% chance of graduation, maybe the logical choice IS the affluent student. I do not owe the black kid an advantage. I owe equal access. Black America hasn’t any reason to be pissed at those who think affirmative action has outlived its use. Its not the system denying Black America access.

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Persol

It doesn't really matter why in this case.

So the cause of the effect doesn’t matter? That makes little sense; it’s like saying Smoking doesn’t matter when it comes to lung cancer. What I think TFH was trying to do is tell us that we the White Man have belittled, and subjugated the Black Man into the position he holds today, one of defeatism, and fatalism. Now I think that there has to be imitative within the Black community, its more their problem then ours now.

Current racism is not the reason today's blacks are poor. It's because they are relatively uneducated due to their parents being poor. There is no reason Group A should be treated any different from Group B.

I agree, I do not support Affirmative action, but the problem is if there is proof that it works (meaning if we were rescind it blacks would be underrepresented) then it speaks more about our society then our laws.

 

Sarge,

Sorry for the delay bro, I think I was suffering from thread withdrawal

Not simply in urban areas. It was law for access to be unequal until 1954. One does not make up a 400-year head start in 40.

Sure it is past history but the effects are still apparent to this day. One cannot simply throw away the past as if it were of no import to the present.

Institutional prejudice in the military is not a thing of the past; even to the present day, the white man is still generally preferred in positions of power and influence within said contradictory institution.

Clearly it is a circular and self-perpetuating mess: if you are poor and uneducated, you mostly remain poor and uneducated. The black man was deliberately uneducated, he was deliberately denied the ability and right to accumulate wealth, he was deliberately presented and taught as an inferior, and images of him reinforced to place him at the bottom of society’s hierarchy. It is no surprise then that he lags.

I agree. Stats do indicate that even within this construct of “latino”, those who are black are more likely to suffer poverty and lack of education.

One’s expectation only reaches as high as their affirmation. There is a reason why a family that has never had a college graduate finds it hard to graduate one, or a family of mostly college graduates keeps graduating them. It is not simply that one family is smarter than the other. Rather, the expectations of those around them fuels and shapes their own, the motivation and involvement of those around them in their education shapes and fuels their own. The expectations of the teacher on the student matter in the same way the expectation of the parent on the student matters.
I recall when I first came to the country and was placed in high school. The Indian students were automatically placed in either honours or standard courses simply based on the transcripts from previous schools or the words of the parents. The African and Caribbean students, including myself, were mostly placed in Standard English, Sociology, and etc courses whilst placed in substandard Math and Science courses just like the Black Americans. When I was moved up in a week’s time, it was not even to be promoted a whole grade level above my age mates as I deserved, no, that required another week. And it was finally my parent’s anger after I alerted them to the situtaion that made the fuckers finally move me up two grade levels above my mates.
The whole point is the educational environment itself undervalued the Black student, and even the African and Caribbean immigrant students whose performance at the school did not merit such treatment, and also the “Middle Eastern” students—but that is another story. What you have then is not simply a problem stemming from the Black. His environment—society-- created and helps reinforces said state of “self-fulfilling” failure by its own expectations on the Black American.

What you show there is a society that expects little from the Black man who in turn expects little from himself who is placed in an environment of little direction along what you term the prudent route, and where all he sees as leading to success is the route you term “gangsta” or easy life of drug dealing, etc. In a lot of the environments where these individuals dwell, the path along the academic route to success has not been witnessed enough—not enough models exist in place to concrete the path as worthy. The opportunities that awaited some that did prod along said path to graduate from high school—an achievement many in here would deem a mere expectation, but in said environment is a major achievement—does not present the same “success” as this “gangsta” lifestyle. Other factors like a need of identification, etc of course plays into this deviation from the path, but that is much too complex for this discussion.
Tupac, in his song, “Words of wisdom” hit on many, many important points.
Here is excerpt:
…. This is for the masses the lower classes
The ones you left out, jobs were givin', better livin'
But we were kept out
Made to feel inferior, but we're the superior
Break the chains in out brains that made us fear yah
Pledge a legiance to a flag that neglects us
Honour a man that who refuses to respect us
Emmancipation, proclamation, Please!
Nigga just said that to save the nation
These are lies that we all accepted
Say no to drugs but the governments' keep it
Running through our community, killing the unity
The war on drugs is a war on you and me
And yet they say this is the Home of The Free
But if you ask me its all about hyprocracy
The constitution, Yo, it don't apply to me
Lady Liberty still the bitch lied to me
Steady strong nobody's gonna like what I pumpin'
But its wrong to keeping someone from learning something
So get up, its time to start nation building
I'm fed up, we gotta start teaching childern
That they can be all that they wanna to be
There's much more to life than just poverty….
There is much more but perhaps a link ought to do: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/2pac/wordsofwisdom.html

You are right. What is funny though is the insistence on some open and liberal people that they are somehow absent of even the subtlest of prejudice. Certain stereotypes and prejudices still shape the White view of America. Hell, simple linguistic forms and types that litter this post and thread even indicate this subtle prejudice.

I do not deny that a lot of the problem the Black man faces begins at home. I do however take strong opposition to attempts to somehow relieve the society at large of responsibility in this mind set. It is not simply that the White man achieved his status through hard work and diligence whilst the Negro stayed at home in his ghetto and slept.

I won’t term this as a fear of success as rather a perception that in their path to success, they had to abandon their culture. It is a mocking of this sense that they have abandoned their “roots”. One does not see Jay-Z, P. Diddy, Simmons, Angelou, etc being mocked for their success, so clearly you cannot make the claim that it is a fear of success that induces this mocking—not matter how wrong you may think it.

You must separate machismo from your values as to what a real man ought to be. Masculinity is indeed very important and exaggerated by the males of the Black community. This termed “machismo” is absent of the values of responsibility, etc that you think more valuable in man—as I do. It is rather a statement of virility, etc.
On your point regarding the absence of positive male influences, I do agree. I think the responsible Black male/father is startlingly absent from the black community. On 2Pac, I do think him a rather complex figure. He had three obvious personalities that preached entirely different messages: Machiavelli, Tupac Shakur, and 2pac. The thread is clearly not about 2Pac, but I will say he preached a lot of positive and intelligent messages even if his more popular ones were not so strong on positive messages. Besides, the artist as is presents their life experience. One cannot expect one raised in an irresponsible environment filled with crime, etc and who has adapted within their environment, to preach about the positives of a college education and the like. This ought to come from elsewhere.

The dynamics are not subject to variations in adaptation. They are simply the characteristics of said environment. To be “taken seriously” they ought to look past the “troubles of the present”? I am not sure what that means. I do not fault you for worrying about your safety when a “group of black guys” your age approach you, especially in a place such as New York City.

You are simplifying the dynamics and I’m getting too tired to get into detail. Clearly, slums and ghettos always attract the highest levels of crime. This is so because the path to success is not in some air-conditioned office but rather in simple crimes, etc… In such an environment, survivability becomes adaptability to your environment. If you have seen Cidade de Deus , you will notice that the filmmakers attempted to show this machinery in the backdrop of Rodrigues’ struggles to elevate himself from his probable fate. That said, justice—jail time, etc is spread unequally across the races.

The ironic, sad and contemptible part of the situation though is that if those were a bunch of white kids, they wouldn’t have to worry about the effects you indicate. If a person is willing to stereotype and generalize a group based on skin colour, then clearly said individual is riddled with prejudices. But hey, let’s all live in denial whilst the problem fosters and even grows.

 

Malcolm X once said “For the white man to ask the black man if he hates him is just like the rapist asking the raped, or the wolf asking the sheep, "Do you hate me!" The white man is in no moral position to accuse anyone of hate. and even though he stems from a different environment where discrimination and racism was more accepted, readily visible and violence against the black an institution, I think the same sentiment can be held today.

It is irrational to assert that enough has been done and opportunity equal amongst the races. All evidence indicates a massive racial divide in income levels, education, incarceration rates, etc. And whilst the gaps have been closing, they are still disproportionately wide. Thus, in the growing sentiment (which seems to come about during every economic downturn) about a supposed reverse discrimination in policies such at affirmative action, I think certain myths ought to be exposed and the Black get pissed at society’s inability to grasp even the simplest of things regarding his predicament and also its insistence in denying the role and effects of history on the Black man’s plight.

Perhaps it is ignorance, stupidity, or even both that prompts people to always associate affirmative action with the Black. Hell I think it is a combination of the two and also reflected prejudice. The fact is, the woman has been the biggest user, and she along with the Asian, the biggest benefactors. The position of the white man’s superiority in this society has not changed hands; he still remains the unchallenged superior. Affirmative action is hurting the white male in relation to the Black as much as a piss in London destroying the stench of NYC.

..to be continued

 

How are you going to determine a rational statement to a non-rational statement? Are you sure everyone you've charged with making the determination is capable?

How about this one:

Affirmative action should be illegal in that it distinguishes by race, which is unconstitional.

or;

Who said life is fair? All you can ask for is that the rules set by your government be fair. Fair can't compensate you for what happened, it can only make sure that from this point forward you are treated as fairly as possible. If you want to strive for fair treatment, shouldn't you strive for a standardized, consistent social policy and legal system - with no instances of discrimination by race?

Are those irrational?

What if that's the pretext to;

"but you know the flip side has sort of a point. To me this type of situation presents an unwinnable ethical dillema. By the rules that seem fair to me, affirmative action is wrong. By practicality, an entire race of people were seriously screwed over in this country for a very long time. Maybe helping them get a leg up is a good idea. It's hard for me to relate to the racist mind, but I'd guess if there were no such thing as affirmative action, a lot of black kids would be denied college admission. In a way, affirmative action blows, but maybe it's better than the alternative because though it still isn't quite fair, it's more fair than allowing the existing racism to go unchecked."

I suppose that's a "fuck you" from you?

 

yes i agree. the bottom line is the inequality. the status quo, and the poor. you see this same old pattern right through history. and its pattern is maintained in patriarchal mythology, psychology, and the 'rules' of literature (if any of you get the chance, checkout 'The Power of Choice' by Druscilla French--you can access it and read it online. she shows how this statuq Quo maintanace is achieved)
the secualr 'hell' is the ghetto. where you end up if you dont follow the rules as set by the status quo

also, how they prohibit ecstatic expression via drugs. i mean how many brown people are locked up in the prisons?? a LOT. a huge percentage for drug related 'offences'. admittedly some violent, but also some not. and we must ask, WHY the violence. could it be a fascistic state that creates the blcak market in drugs, hence gangsterism and guns etc

So, yeah, class division and conflict is HUGE, and needs closely looking at. getting to the roots of it

 

If the person has since stopped smoking, and now just has lung cancer... no the cause doesn't matter.

Yeah, and that's just as racist as the people who did the bad deeds. We did no such thing.

An slavery helped us produce cheap crops.... that doesn't make it right.


The problems of today are due to poverty.... not color.

 

If the person has since stopped smoking, and now just has lung cancer... no the cause doesn't matter.

But it does it proves that smoking causes lung cancer; traditionally in the US at least you can sue the tobacco company if you do get lung cancer, especially second hand. The reason why airlines stopped allowing in-flight smoking is because their flight attendants were dying.

Yeah, and that's just as racist as the people who did the bad deeds. We did no such thing.

Well lets not claim innocence our “modern” society still has racism against other visible minorities. The reason why affirmative action exists is because there is the premise that blacks (don’t women even have affirmative action?) will be discriminated against because of their color, and I am sure that would happen and does. Now I personally did get a little miffed when the black students got into the class when the white students deserved to go in instead. I believe in a meritocratic society, but when race usurps merit then something is wrong.

The problems of today are due to poverty.... not color.

Sorry but we do not live in a perfect society, racism is a major factor as to why colored ppl cannot advance in life even if they have succeeded educationally, sadly that more the rule then exception.

 

Apples and oranges. Knowing that smoking caused it only helps to prevent others from smoking. For the person who already has cancer, it doesn't matter.

Likewise the history of blacks in america shows why racism should be fought against, but does nothing for those who are stuck because of poverty (whatever the cause).

But here's the main issue. A black person has every reason to be pissed because of discriminitation that they face... and it is something that can actually be changed.

Being pissed that your great great grandfather was discriminatied against (to a much greater exent than any black today) serves no purpose. The result would be that you are poor and fairly uneducated. The cause (for the most part) has already been treated. Now the side effect of poverty is the main problem.

Well then, I have to ask what the point of 'black americans being pissed about their history' is. What exactly does it help? Does it put the in any better position? No. Is it just the continuation of racism? Yes.

I'm not claiming that racism doesn't exist. I'm claiming that is isn't the major problem. Look at your average inner city black ghetto (or any ghetto for that matter). What percentage do you think are actually educated enough to get a scholarship? Not many. The public schooling generally sucks. The teachers don't want to teach in such an area, and the community doesn't really have much of a voice (read: financial backing) to complain about unfairness. A community victim mentality starts and the community stagnates. Eventually the schools close and the kids need to be bussed to school.

This isn't a black problem. It's happened in poor latino, indian, and white communities.

Racism is only a factor if the person is educated enough to be hired in the first place. Look at unemployment and criminal statistics and the correlation is obvious across all the races.

 

Apples and oranges. Knowing that smoking caused it only helps to prevent others from smoking. For the person who already has cancer, it doesn't matter.

If they beat it? I think it does matter, not everyone dies from that experience.

But here's the main issue. A black person has every reason to be pissed because of discriminitation that they face... and it is something that can actually be changed.

Not really, racism is not bred by the government, so what can the government do that its not doing already? Racism is largely a societal problem that the government cannot really fix or change, it depends on the region, the racial mix, history, etc. How can we change racism? We all know it is never going to go away…

Being pissed that your great great grandfather was discriminatied against (to a much greater exent than any black today) serves no purpose.

But the problem is that the US government has not apologized for its treatment of blacks (at least to my knowledge) so the wound is still not healed.

Well then, I have to ask what the point of 'black americans being pissed about their history' is. What exactly does it help? Does it put the in any better position? No.

But you forget about the psychological effects of living in a sub-segment of society that historically been marginalized and they were promised compensation and did not receive it. They have a legitimate beef…

This isn't a black problem. It's happened in poor latino, indian, and white communities.

But do any of those have the truly the same level of disenfranchisement as blacks?

Racism is only a factor if the person is educated enough to be hired in the first place.

So then you agree though with the assertion that race does play a factor, thus if it does then Affirmative action is justified.

 

See my problems is why? Why does he, like so many, lag. I agree with what you say. Education, for the greater part, was denied to or supressed in quality for the Black people. In todays day and age that does not need to be. I, myself, have spent 2 my junior high years in one of the worst schools in NY and even then I found plenty of chances to distance myself from the ignorance which lack of education brings.

Exactly. So could it be that many low class black families do not motivate their kids enough? They, themselves, do not find much hope in their kids so they raise them with values of a hard working, blue collar individual.

There is no denying this.

So much of this all really comes down to this. Excellent points.

True but I keep finding that the problem with this issue is that the results all are all the same but the way they are achieved varies to great degree.

The end result - A poverty stricken, crime prone black man.

The way he got this way is never simple to understand. In so many occasions the result is helped directly or indirectly by hundreds of factors. The problem can't be found and only debate reigns (take this thread for example) because no one really knows where the problem begins or ends. Each solution and complain has many rebuttals.

Only thing constant is the result.....a minority still struggling to find its place.

What roots? Acting educated or being soft spoken isn't losing one's roots is it?

True but I still don't understand how Jay-z is still "black" while Bryant Gumbel isn't.

From where then?

My point is that I shouldn't have to but I do in every instance.....this does not bode well for the black male youth. While I am, so far, able to rationalize my fear most aren't.....Maybe this is the beginning of the cycle, the planting seed which causes undermining in every other aspect. I guess it only takes one bad experience to start contributing negatively.

Heh...true ain't it. But I have come to find that the skin colour now acts as reminder, a signal of all the sterotypes one adheres to. The prejudice in this day and age doesn't stand simply against the darkened color itself, the color acts as a seal of approval to start worrying about personal health, property etc because every night you see another police sketch of a robber, murderer, rapist etc and he happens to be black or latino.....the color is a reminder of irrational fear, a flag of possible danger....

....no sees the color as a sign of possible potential or simply another color among many. I guess it really does take one bad experience to taint a color.