Biblical Flaws and Your Thoughts

Scrollmaker-

I just posted in another forum a very interesting contradiction that is found in Genesis 4 and 5 that may help you narrow things down a bit, since you only have a week. The question was posted as "Who did Cain marry?"

Basically, it goes like this. Adam and Eve produced Cain and Abel. Cain became jealous of Abel and slew him. God got ticked, and banished him to the kingdom of Nod. Whereupon, Cain 'lay with his wife' (where'd SHE come from if all there was was the three of them left?). In Gen. 5, Adam and Eve produced Seth and then a bunch of other sons and daughters. Nowhere prior to this does it mention other siblings of Cain, but the assumption is that A & E did, indeed, produce others and that Cain had to have married one of his sisters. Apparently, incest is those days was common and God (being God) could deal with the DNA problems. Incest was banned from society with the coming of Christ (along with the 'eye for an eye' thing, among many others). Might make an interesting weeklong research project. Have fun!

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edit: just noticed the date of your orig. post so maybe my idea is too late. Sorry! Just joined tonight.

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I still have a little time

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Thanks for all the info. I probably can't add anything into the project after this, but you guys can continue to post here if you want.

 

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I thought the bible was suppose to be the inspired word of god. Of course I don't believe all of this, but thought you did. I see now you agree that it was merely written by men, which as we had agreed in another post, are not perfect which explains flaws in the bible.

I'm not convinced that this verse in Luke is hyperbolic language, that is what you believe. I simply stated it was your prerogative to believe so.

Yes, I think I understand how it is done among christians. If something is an obvious contradiction or if it cannot be explained away- fall back on one of the many excuses used so often. Just keep in mind it is just as easy to state Jesus' miracles were not reality, but rather the authors expressing themselves through hyperbolic language.

 

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Inspired by God. Also keep in mind that "flaws" are a literary impossibility. If something was written as the author intended, there can be no flaws, only inconsistencies. The Bible works like a power generator - it isn't the separate bits and pieces that genereate faith, but the totality of its testament. If it isn't "Good News" to you, it isn't the Bible you are reading.

No wonder you can't resolve the contradictions you find. You are a textual literalist. To you, "hate" always means whatever is opposite to what the Bible teaches, and therefore always irreconcilable within it, am I right?

You understand wrong. I make no excuses, but you don't accept my explanantions either. How did Jesus calm a storm "hyperbolically" in a boat full of fishermen fearing for their lives? How did Jesus rise from the dead "hyperbolically"?

But "hate" is an emotional word, isn't it? If I told you I love you, you would just laugh at me and say I have no reason to, because I don't know you. But just watch your reaction if I said I hate you. It all depends on who I am, what I know about you and why I would say something like that. You would have to look at everything else I said and find out what kind of a person I am, before you would know if I can credibly mean what you assume I mean.

If mother Theresa told you to hate your parents before you could follow her, you would think twice about what it means to follow her, and how seriously she wants you to take it.

 

A mind like a steel trap!

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Jenyar,

My whole point was that I think it is pretty darn convenient of you to interpret what you deem figuratively and exaggerated etc... You pick and choose. If something doesn't make sense to you..you fall back on .."well this isn't what so and so meant"...or.."this is not a literal translation". In my correspondence with you, it appears you only do this when something doesn't "jive" with you and your beliefs.

How do you know that Jesus' miracles were literal? How do you know for fact his resurrection was? You pick and choose, that's how

 

Because they believe that they are actually happened. No problem with that.

The problem is when you try and extend Biblespeak into actual issues. Since Jesus' miracles aren't exactly worth fighting over who cares? However, when it comes to abortion, the death penalty, taxes, racisism, whatever... and the Bible is your 'guiding light'... then we have a problem. Accepting that it isn't all literal, and that you could be quite wrong about it's supposed meaning, you have to accept that it is not a valid source of real life discussion.

 

Conversions

Jenyar,

If you don't mind my asking, when were you converted to Xianity or were you raised in it? Your "literal" interpretations of the Bible just don't jive with your reference to "language and writing styles" of the Bible. How can one be taken literal then the others need to be interpreted based on the writer's style? We really don't know for sure who the gospel writers are! As you can see, I'm trying not to be so hateful in my posts to you. It didn't work anyway. But now I'm "seeing you" in a different light. It seems you are desperately trying to prove to everyone that the Bible is true. Something tells me that you have doubts of your own and you're trying real hard to pretend that you believe it's all true, when I don't think you do. That's why I asked about your conversion to Xianity. What is it that that makes you believe it? I don't think you're trying to "prove" it to the rest of us, I think you're trying to "prove" it to yourself! There's just no logic or reason or understanding of your posts. I just don't think you're sincere.)

 

You look at "the Bible" in general, but from this overview perspective you make generalizations about interpretation which are unfair. If you give me a specific passage I will tell you why I interpret it like I do. If I genuinely failed to reach a plausible interpretation, you and M*W wouldn't have had such a problem with it.

For instance, Genesis is a creation account. That means nobody was there to witness it, and its structure and meaning is subject to faith and its teaching has to be subject to faith. There are various such myths, but they have to be interpreted on their own merits. Miracles are different, since they depend on the experience of those who saw and believed them to be miracles. If Jesus "walked around" the water like you say, why did Peter sink when he went to Jesus? Of course it has spiritual implications, but they depend on the authenticity of the event.

Your not going to like my answer, but I'll give it anyway: I know it by faith. Not blind faith, mind you, but faith in God's ability to create the world (since all miracles are acts of authority over creation), faith in the integrity of the witnesses, and faith that God fulfilled what was prophesied. If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead by God, I have gained nothing but lost everything. Either way it's no loss to you. But if God did create life, raised Jesus from the dead, and exists, you are missing something you weren't supposed to miss.

I appreciate your effort to be civil. It does make it easier to respond. I was raised Christian, as were my parents and their parents - I think I am at least eigth or ninth generation Christian.

If you read my reply to heart, it answers your question about interpretation at least in principle. You say for instance I don't know who the gospel writers are, but just like you can form an opinion about me by what I say and how I say it, we can form an opinion of the writers by their work.

I'm not trying to prove the Bible is true. How can I do that? You either believe one side of the story or the other. That's a personal preference. There are many scholars who do in-depth studies of the life and times of people while others deny they even existed.

Yes I have many doubts. But they are like someone who doubts whether or not he can do what he knows he should. They are recognitions of my own fallibility and lack of knowledge. Having said that, that I can have such faith as I have must seem like a terrible discrepancy to you. How can I know? everybody asks. But lack of knowledge does not have to be ignorance. If I can't learn from my doubts, I have no business doubting. From your doubt, you can discount thousands of years of religion and yet be certain of your own. People say I trust too easily, but my experience is that you can't ever trust God enough.

Very often I am trying to prove things to myself. I would form a theory or take something as "true" and then see how long it can be credibly maintained by what it proposes to be. Walking in the truth is a lot like walking on lilies in a pond, seeing which hold up and which don't. In the end no truth can harm me, but missing one always has unpleasant consequences. In that vain let me say this: God has never disappointed me. Looking at Jesus is like looking at the horison, expecting the sun to come up any moment because you know it has never failed to rise.

 

Truth & Doubt

Originally posted by Jenyar
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You look at "the Bible" in general, but from this overview perspective you make generalizations about interpretation which are unfair.
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(Why do you think everyone but YOU looks at the Bible in general, but YOU are the only one who interprets it correctly?)
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For instance, Genesis is a creation account. That means nobody was there to witness it, and its structure and meaning is subject to faith and its teaching has to be subject to faith.
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(Then why do you believe in its literal interpretation of 6 days, no evolution, etc? You've just contradicted yourself!)
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There are various such myths, but they have to be interpreted on their own merits.
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(Admit it! Your doubts are showing!)
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Miracles are different, since they depend on the experience of those who saw and believed them to be miracles.
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(But what if the people around Jesus didn't see the miracles, and Paul just created them to make the Jesus myth character seem like he was ethereal?)
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Your not going to like my answer, but I'll give it anyway: I know it by faith. Not blind faith, mind you, but faith in God's ability to create the world (since all miracles are acts of authority over creation), faith in the integrity of the witnesses,...
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(The eye witnesses in the Bible were probably concocted, too. The actual eye witnesses like, Mary Magdala for example, who told the TRUTH about Jesus, were banished from the Bible by men, patriarchs of the early church. Why would you believe anything that had been edited with prejudice?)
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If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead by God, I have gained nothing but lost everything.
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(Jenyar, I believe this is the seed of your doubt. You have been raised as a Xian and have come from generations of Xians. You've been spoon fed Xianity your whole life. I think you're more knowledgeable than you appear in your posts. Perhaps you have issues with your family stemming from their religious fervor, I assume. Don't be ashamed of your doubts. They are healthy! You don't need to prove anything to anybody else--just yourself. What does it matter anyway? You're here in bodily form. There is a reason you are here, but Jesus ISN'T the reason. You are missing your whole life's mission by dwelling on Jesus, and by doing that, you ARE losing everything!)
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Either way it's no loss to you. But if God did create life, raised Jesus from the dead, and exists, you are missing something you weren't supposed to miss.
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(You're right. Either way it's no loss to me. God did create life. God did not raise Jesus from the dead any more than he will raise us "from the dead." Let me say here that God "raising from the dead" is totally misunderstood. Once again, the physical body dies but the spirit never dies. The physical body is never "raised from the dead." The One spirit of God goes into each human life. The human life will be a newborn (not a fetus) and it will contain a portion of the One Spirit of God until that physical body dies. Then the spirit will return alive to the One Spirit of God until it occupies another physical life. There is NO DEATH to the Spirit (the positive energy creative force). Jesus was not "raised from the dead." The spirit of God which Jesus may have contained became part of the same spirit of god when Jesus died. Please note: I DID NOT say Jesus died on the Cross! Instead of the word "resurrection," meaning revival of one's old physical body, the word "resurrection," means a return of the spirit to the Earth in a new physical body.)
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I was raised Christian, as were my parents and their parents - I think I am at least eigth or ninth generation Christian.
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(I think this is the root of your problem with being defensive. Because your family has been Xian for generations, your instincts are telling you not to question the faith of your ancestors.)
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You say for instance I don't know who the gospel writers are, but just like you can form an opinion about me by what I say and how I say it, we can form an opinion of the writers by their work.
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(Jenyar, you are obviously NOT reading anything outside of Xian literature. Of course it's biased! If you want to learn the TRUTH, you need to read other literature. I'm afraid you're just getting deeper into your religious addiction.)
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I'm not trying to prove the Bible is true. How can I do that? You either believe one side of the story or the other. That's a personal preference. There are many scholars who do in-depth studies of the life and times of people while others deny they even existed.
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(Jenyar, you ARE trying to prove to everyone on this forum that the Bible is TRUE, and you're defensive about it. You scream, "it's true, it's true," but I'm hearing silent whispers from you that, "maybe it's not true. Maybe they're right. I'll just try harder to make them believe me!")
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Yes I have many doubts. If I can't learn from my doubts, I have no business doubting. People say I trust too easily, but my experience is that you can't ever trust God enough.
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(Yes, I see you have many doubts. You're not learning anything from your doubts because you're afraid to learn anything! Perhaps you doubt God. My guess is you doubt yourself. Try trusting yourself more. God created you. God lives inside you. There should be no doubt about this. God would want you to trust yourself more. I see you struggling with God, but of course, your family would be disappointed in you if they knew this! You've heard all your young life to trust God and deny yourself. Try trusting yourself. Try trusting the creation God made for you.)
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Very often I am trying to prove things to myself. Looking at Jesus is like looking at the horison, expecting the sun to come up any moment because you know it has never failed to rise.
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(Jenyar, you have just exposed your worst fear--the fear of death. The entire human race fears death! You are no different! Your doubts stem from this fear. You just can't be sure that you have conquered all the things that you think God and Jesus want from you to conquer death, but you have! The human race has already conquered death without Jesus! This was the message Jesus himself was trying to relay! We are infinite spirit, but for a time, we haul around a physical body to complete our Earthly mission. There is no death to the spirit. Please start looking more inside your heart. This is where you'll find God, and this is where you will see there are no more doubts. You're trying so hard to believe you've conquered death when your psyche is telling you you are doomed! All the while this is going on, you've neglected the mission God sent you here for! Don't waste any more time! You're here, you're alive. Generations of family demands you be true to Jesus, but Jesus wants you to be true to yourself!)

 

another good thread... i will be back!

 

The below story has 4 or 5 parts as you will see on the web site, but it is documented proof of God raising someone from the dead through a man. Happened in like 2001 i think.
Med women, I don't know if you believe that God can do this or not, but this is documented proof. It sites the newspaper it was in as well on this web page.

http://www.cfan.org/{English}/[US_Site]/content.asp?id=0000184&page=01

Copy and paste the above clip to the address and hit go.

 

Maybe you don't know what documented proof is. But they don't have documented proof. No pictures, videos, etc. After being driven in that car around for so long his body's wastes would have come out of his body. This and some other things don't make sense. I seriously doubt the quality of healthcare in whatever place that was. People have been known to survive short periods of time with no heartbeat. They don't state it was from any newspaper. All they say was a newspaper had a headline reading that a man was brought back to life. It was obviously a lie because they say he came back with no injuries or mental difficencies or anything else. People have been known to have been reported dead and then a day or two later come back alive. That may have happened, but in no way did he have no injuries after "re-awakening". I could write a bullshit story like that and somehow or another mention Jesus in it and I would have thousands of Christians pointing and saying, Look! Proof God exsists!

Edit: And I doubt this story could have been translated from this fake newspaper, without horrible stretches of truth by these two biblers. (bible - ers)

 

Jenyar,

I'm sorry, as I don't mean to be unfair, Jenyar. Truthfully, it has been everything we have talked about and right now, I guess I'm too lazy to go back and dig up the different threads. One I can think of had to do with the sins of the fathers upon the children. Tell you what, I will be sure to point it out next time.

Yes, I agree. That prompts me to ask, remember when you asked if I had died in the flood? Did you witness the miracles of Jesus which the Bible speaks about?
Of course that was a rhetorical question given we both know you didn't. So how is it you take the word of men who wrote these stories when you don't even know them?

You know how a movie that is "based on a true story" will add events that never happened for dramatic effect? Well, there ya go.

It's no secret we have different opinions, but I sincerely appreciate your honesty, Jenyar.

I am unsure how you can fully trust the integrity of witnesses you have never met. I'd be interested in knowing how, mind sharing?

 

Faith is something you live by. Just "having" faith is the kind everybody goes on about, blind faith. Then you don't know what you believe or even what you're doing. You have no hold on what you call your "faith".

There is no other way to corroborate experience than to experience it yourself. If you want to know whether those people were genuine or whether their message was genuine, try living by their advice. You'll get to know them as yourself.

 

Scrollmaker,

I am sorry, I should have said here is eye witness report from a recent event. Would that have been better. I guess the reason I said documented was because there was a imaged death certificate for the guy from the hospital. I would still say that somebody that sees the event take place would be consider a good source. Everything you read about history has a chance of error because it is from an eye witness account or a heresay(word of mouth) account. Until video and photo were invented, recording events through writing, painting, and word of mouth was all there was. These all have a chance of error.

It does seem like a pretty pointless argument to bring in evidence the God exists because you will pick and choose what you will and won't accept. I could bring in documented video, pictures, medical records and everything and you would find a way to contest it. You know why? because you probably do not want to believe that something outside of this world exists.

 

That is the difference between atheists and theists. Atheists do not pick and choose what things are truths. I can choose to believe whatever I want, but it does not make it the truth.

I can choose to believe that the Earth is the center of the universe, but no matter how much faith I pour into this belief, all evidence suggests it is wrong.

 

Man will believe what is reasonable and logical. That is why the earth was flat for so long. Man will believe in what he can see, that is why it is really hard to say how big the universe really is and if there is a God. Man will believe because of his circumstances and environment. Man is instilled with beliefs from a very young age through environment and circumstances. Man won't understand God, because God is too great to fathom. Man won't understand the universe, because it is too great to fathom. The difference between God and the unverse is this. You can partially see the universe, but you cannot see God. The crazy part is this, everytime you look at the universe, you do get a glimpse of God because it is his work.

Atheists do pick and choose. Theists do pick and choose. Everybody will picks and chooses. That is the nature of it. I will venture to say that man will believe whatever is reasonable and logical to benefit them at any one time. This helps better explain it. Man is selfish. Man's reason and logic is biased. You can't say theists do it, because everyone does it. Atheists don't know how big the universe is or what is in the parts of the universe that are not visible. None of us do.

 

Wait 100 hundred years and try that one again.

As for choosing... Theists choose a story of how everything was created. They have chosen that everything was because God created it. That, in a sense, means that you know everything. Because everything was written in that book the way it is. I choose to believe nothing, but what evidence suggests there is. Evidence suggests there is no God. If evidence pointed to a God, there would be no atheism.

 

do a search for the "skeptics annotated bible",theres hundreds of contradictions.
www.theskepticsannotatedbible.com/