Bereavement apparitions..

No, it is not. The ghost explanation is actually unfalsifiable. Therefore, nothing rules it out. Nothing could.

Some percentage of people report seeing such things, certainly. I assume you don't have any stats on that. That would require effort.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

That, I understand just fine. I totally understand why people who have had that kind of experience might come to believe in ghosts (or why they might well believe in them before having the experience). Thanks for asking.

Well, it's probably a big ask. Your standard ghost is supposed to be the disembodied spirit of a person who has died. So, I would probably want to see some good evidence that any kind of spirit exists, disembodied or otherwise, for starters. Then I'd need to see some clear evidence that the purported ghost shared the knowledge and personality of a particular, identified dead person (and have the earlier death confirmed). And, naturally, I want to see some reliable physical evidence of the ghost itself. Perhaps some high-quality video footage of the ghost, with sound, shot by an unbiased observer and obviously free from evidence of manipulation (CGI, editing tricks, suspicious cuts etc.). The ghost would need to appear more than once, to different and unconnected groups of reliable observers.

In addition, some solid scientific theories describing and accounting for the existence of spirits would be valuable. It would be great if the ghost could agree to cooperate with scientists, to study how the ghost manages to interact with ordinary matter, light and such. I'd like to know what the ghost is made of, for instance. It is made of ordinary matter or some spirit material (ectoplasm?)? How and why does the ghost appear and disappear? It would be great if somebody could interview the ghost to find out what it knows.

To summarise then: I'd require extraordinary evidence to convince me that ghosts are real, because the claim that ghosts are real is, after all, an extraordinary claim.

Note: the above list is only suggestive of the kind of evidence that I'd like to see. It is not meant to be prescriptive or exclusive of other possible evidences. I'm open minded - just not so open minded that my brains fall out.

 

Actually, ghost sighting are predictable in some of their features, and some reports say the same ghost can "repeat" in the same place. Despite that, and in spite of years in which a plethora of highly-motivated people could have worked to prove the existence of ghosts, there's still no good evidence for their actual existence. Instead, the best explanations either involve misidentification of everyday things (as is the case with many UFOs), faulty perceptions (e.g. paradolia) or minds playing other tricks, not to mention deliberate fraud, which is ever-present in this area.

There's a huge amount of scientific evidence for the big bang. We see its ongoing effects all around us when we look out at the universe. That's why the BB theory is science.

As for consciousness, that's proven to be a hard nut to crack, scientifically. There are lots of ideas and a lot of ongoing research, though. Consciousness is certainly a regularly-observed phenomenon that lends itself to scientific testing and examination.

It would be immediately ruled out if anybody ever produced any convincing evidence of a ghost, in a particular case. That doesn't happen, though.

Ah yes. A 1982 paper in the esteemed Journal of Psychical Research. Has any progress been made in that field since 1982?

And, of course, he does not even consider the possibility that ghosts are hallucinations or similar.

I love these kinds of kooky gems from the article:

I wonder whether he considered the possibility that things might be opaque due to ordinary physical properties, at all. It seems not.

The article is woo, through and through.

 

I kind of have to ask.. So what if he accepts it at face value?

Is it frustrating sometimes? Sure. But so what? How is this harmful to you? If you read a scientific study, do you accept the results at face value?

Because I am overly sceptical of most things, James. Is it possible that those who followed Kulman applied a well known religious standard to saints to her? Absolutely. There's something to be gained in it. Religions have been doing this for centuries. Is it shocking that her followers or the other leaders of her congregation applied that standard to elevate her status as a faith healer, etc? Not at all. I'd have been shocked if they hadn't.

If people smelled it, they smelled it. Am I going to turn around and tell them they are wrong? No. If they didn't smell it, and then claimed they had, then that would be fraudulent. But the smell of roses around death has been around for as long as religious belief has been around. I guess it says something that I smelled Pears soap.. But here we are.

But smelling flowers, other scents, roses, etc, is not that uncommon around death James. People experience it. That is their experience. If people experienced it with Kulman, then okay? I mean, what do you want me to say to them? They're wrong?

Because Kulman was a religious figure with a huge following and because smelling roses in particular, after death, is known in religious circles to suggest the divine. I thought my post was quite clear on the matter. I also explained why such reports may have spread after her death. If people believe those reports, then more power to them. That is their choice to believe it.

We do have freedom to choose what we do and do not believe in, yes?

I believe that he experienced something and how he chooses to interpret it is up to him. Just as the people who believe they saw a white light over Kulman's body when she died or others who claim they smelled roses, etc, is their experience and how they interpret it is absolutely up to them.

Interpretation of everything we see, smell, taste, hear, touch, is actually individual and is also based on our own experiences, beliefs and expectations, and is also influenced by our values, culture and norms.

Something something about the intricacies of how we perceive and interpret the world around us applies here.

You can discuss whatever you want. But it's still not going to diminish what I experienced. I also said that it is hard to explain and frankly, whether you believe it or not is up to you. I'm telling you what I experienced personally. Do I believe MR and others experienced something similar? Yes. It's a personal experience. If I can't explain what it is, I don't expect you to be in absolutely any position to do so, because you didn't experience it.

I am sceptical about her story, because of who she was, but I also understand that people did experience something after she died. I am sceptical because of who she was and the religious ideology that she pushed and I also understand the need for her church to push the any story of her being somehow divine or touched by god, because their very existence depended on it. But that's me. I don't expect others to believe as I do. If MR or anyone else wishes to believe it, then good for them. More power to them.

Err no? Why would I expect you to believe my experiences in this matter? I think the bigger question is why do you feel in a better position to tell MR and I what it was not?

If I can't even explain it or understand what it was, how can you explain what it was not? How can anyone? If someone thinks it's a ghost.. Okay? And? I can or can not believe them. That's up to me, right? Just as it's up to you to not believe it. But you aren't in a position to be absolute about it either.

You can. But you aren't going to get anywhere. How would I gather evidence for seeing him or smelling Pears soap? I don't think scratch and sniff monitors exists yet. Secondly, why would I want to gather evidence of it? To suit what purpose and whose narrative? Not mine. I know what I experienced and saw. I can't tell you what it was or was not. And that's all there was to it.

 

Then shut down the Fringe section, religion, politics, etc, sections?

None of them are scientific or fall under the "sci" banner.

Then do so?

No one is saying you shouldn't critically analyse anything James. I merely pointed out that MR is free to believe as he wishes and you are free to believe as you wish. You aren't going to change his mind and he's not going to change yours. He's not trying to convert anyone. He's posting about things that interest him and what he believes in. You don't have to agree with him or believe as he does. So, what now?

Perhaps you should consider why the Fringe section exists to begin with.

Last time I checked, MR wasn't claiming to be a Nigerian prince offering an unknown inheritance from an unknown relative in Nigeria and asking people for their bank details to transfer the funds.

Well thankfully you didn't post that in the religion forum, of you'd have pitchforks and torches being lit in your honour!

People believe what they want to believe, James, because it gives them hope and brings them comfort. If MR thinks he saw his mother's ghost and it gave him comfort and closure, then that is terrific for him! Who am I to come and criticise him because I don't believe in ghosts and have a whine about why he isn't applying critical thinking skills to his own personal experience or he believes the experiences of others? Who are you to do so? Who would I be to do so? He's not infringing on anyone's rights, he's not harming anyone.

I guess, it comes down to having empathy, James. Especially when it comes to this subject matter.

So much for empathy, eh James?

Is it only crazy people who hallucinate or have delusions? No. It's actually a very common experience across all cultures and societies and can be caused by a variety of things. But that's neither here nor there.

Perhaps that's how you find comfort in the world around you James.

I'll address the other posts later.

 

But we shouldn't discount the fact that we were grieving when we experienced this.

I'm not going to lie, I was in a pretty bad place before and after my father passed away. I'd experienced grief before, but nothing like this. I was exceptionally close to my father, I cared for him during his illness. I bore the brunt of everything he went through, firstly to protect my mother as much as I could from it, and that became even more important after she herself was diagnosed with a CNS lymphoma. Secondly, because I wanted to make sure that he was supported and would never feel he had to keep his feelings about his impending death internally. I was grieving from the moment his cancer was diagnosed as terminal and they could no longer try to contain it, as he had developed a life threatening infection, which meant his regular chemo and avastin treatment had to stop, which resulted in his cancer basically exploding and spreading everywhere. I was also under a tremendous amount of stress and mental strain. I was severely depressed and at times, even suicidal. The only reason I did not die with my father is because of my children, my husband and my mother, who all needed me. I simply could not bear the thought of losing my dad. That is what it boiled down to.

In the final months of my father's life, I was trying to do everything I could to give him what he wanted. My father had not wanted to die in the hospital, he wanted to die at home. He could no longer eat or swallow solid food, due to the tumours that were then pressing on his oesophagus, so to stop him from fading away (he'd lost half his body weight by this point and looked like a skeleton and he was wearing clothes from the kids section), I spent weeks, mostly nights, researching bone broths and soups that he could swallow, and try to maintain his weight and slow the weightloss. I was getting less than 2 hours sleep in a 24 hour period. Then a week before he passed away, we knew he would not see past 2 weeks by that point, we had organised for him to die at home. A hospital bed was ordered, a palliative nurse came in daily to help manage his pain (and he was in so much pain, he would scream into a pillow), because he could no longer swallow his pain medication, so he had to have injections. At that point, the only sleep I was getting was less than an hour and was during when the nurse was there for the short periods she was there, and even then, it was plagued by nightmares of what was to come. Then a week before he died, it was 3am, and during the night, managing his pain was left up to me. It meant changing his nappy, taking care of his colonoscopy bag while he was unconscious, giving him the injections.. And he started to do the death rattle. And I had a complete mental breakdown as I realised I could not do this, that my husband and I couldn't do this and I faced the prospect of doing something my father had been against for his death - he did not want to die in the hospital. But that breathing sound was so loud, it echoed through the entire house. We had an injection to reduce the chances of it happening, and the nurse had told us to use however much we wanted, to not use this stuff sparingly, I used the sage swab to try to absorb the moisture in his mouth and near the back of his throat, but it didn't help. And all I could think in that moment was 'this is going to scar my children for life' and I broke down. Completely and utterly broke down because I found myself in the position of having to choose my children's mental health vs my father's dying wish.

I was obsessed with giving him what he wanted. The guilt I felt when the nurse arrived first thing the next morning and helped prepare him to transfer back to the palliative care ward, and the guilt I felt when we got there.. The guilt I felt as I sobbed by his bedside, begging him to forgive me for not being able to cope with his dying at home. There are no words. I know my father would have been horrified that he'd put me through that. At the time, he was consumed with what he knew was coming and he wasn't able to see or even understand clearly what was going on around him. His brain was already in shutdown mode and it was preparing him for the end of his life. Not to mention that my family had spent days harassing and abusing me for my atheism, for not giving him what he wanted, for the fact that I had supported him when he tried to request euthanasia (my father did not want to linger as he ended up lingering) to die with dignity, which was not legal at the time.

The reason I am telling you this, MR, is to get you to understand that when I felt him hug me, when I saw him, when I smelled his soap, I was under a tremendous amount of mental distress, strain, exhaustion and I was grieving in a way that actually shocked me and ultimately, resulted in my needing over 2 years of therapy to get past everything that happened. My husband was also under a lot of strain, stress and was grieving himself and he was terrified watching me go through this and at the time, I was not open to considering therapy for myself, because I couldn't imagine leaving my father alone to even attend an appointment. I don't understand why the nurse smelled something in that room, maybe there was a smell there. But she'd cared for him before and knew him for close to a year, as my father had been in and out of that ward to treat his infection and for pain management. So it's possible she was having her own moment.

The brain is very good at doing everything it can to shield us from further harm. When children are abused and/or face severe trauma, it can essentially lead to dissociative identity disorder. And occurs to protect the child, to allow them to mentally escape the ongoing trauma and/or abuse they are experiencing. Did we hallucinate? Possibly. Was he actually there? Possibly. Given the state of our mental health at the time, particularly mine, it's not shocking or surprising that I had these experiences. That my brain was trying to do things to give me comfort, to try to prevent further harm would not be surprising during that time. I absolutely experienced things when my father died, and I can't explain any of it. In the same way that I told James that he wasn't in any position to tell me what it was not, no one is really in a position to tell me what absolutely was. At the end of the day, we live and die by our experiences. We are free to believe as we wish when it comes to these matters. I will say, if you find comfort in believing in an afterlife, then I am really happy for you. What I request is when considering these sorts of experiences, to factor in everything else. If you still elect to believe in them and particularly, because it brings you comfort, then that is up to you and how you wish to deal with grief, loss and pain. I am not going to argue with you to try to take that away from you and no one should. These beliefs are entirely personal. Yes, people will disagree with you, some will mock you, some will disregard you because of it. But ultimately, you can only go with what you believe to be true to yourself. But just be mindful that because it is entirely personal, not everyone will agree with you, or believe as you do. We will never be 100% sure that ghosts exist. In the same way you ask people to consider the possibility, you should also consider other possibilities. In all of this, I am truly sorry for your loss MR. Losing a parent is a horrible experience and I am happy that you were able to find something that brought you comfort after she passed away. Take care of yourself.