beer woman spared a good old fasioned caning

Most of these so-called secular peace-nicks are Christians who teach their children the Qur'an is the corrupted word of God and Muslims must be freed (and by free they mean forced into worshiping baby Jesus).

As for Obama, it seems to me he is pulling the USA out - it's not as fast as I'd have liked, but, the hand-over in Iraq happened. So, it's happening. It's just that my fellow Yanks are addicted to SUVs and feel cheap oil is a GOD given right. They need re-educated as well. By the Gods I only wish I could set the curriculum!



The only people I know who really don't like beer, are people who have mental problems when they drink beer and are smart enough to know it exacerbates these problems. You know, like people who go all agro. But, most people are fine with a drink, and, it's a part of all cultures on earth. So when did it become wrong to drink in "Islamic" countries? I mean, historically, when did people stop enjoying wine and beer?

 

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Thats generally where Islamic societies and their contributions are also discussed. In history books. The difference between other societies and Islamic societies is that although state and church were separated in Islamic societies, the changes in the society upon the arrival of Islam were directly attributed to embracing Islam. Even the contributions of Jews and Christians in Islamic societies were notably influenced by the Islamic social institutions around them. To talk of Islamic societies is no different than to talk of western societies. The only difference is that people had to abandon the tenets of Christianity to develop western society and embrace the tenets of Islam to advance Islamic societies.


For people to revert to the Quran would be an advancement in most Islamic societies and for western societies to follow the bible would require them to renounce their values. Note that most western societies could follow the values in the Quran without any problem whatsoever.

 

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Sam: Note that most western societies could follow the values in the Quran without any problem whatsoever.

Difference being people in the West do not need anyone to teach them how to live or what 'values' to live by. Most thinking people would be affronted by someone's pre-packaged value system. Its kind of like paint by numbers, the picture may come out right but you never learn how to paint nor be creative, you simply follow someone else's lines.

 

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The idea that a person is innocent until proved guilty first arose in Islamic societies. The notion that a person has inalienable rights from a creator that cannot be stripped by any king or administration is an Islamic one. The notion that all people are equal before law is based on Islamic jurisprudence [i.e. sharia] The notion of personal liberty to make choices is an Islamic one [al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya]. Universities and hospitals separated from religious studies/ monks caring for indigent or sick were first seen in Islamic societies.

Western societies don't know it yet but they are already more Islamic than Judeo-Christian.

 

I think if you take a non-biased look at the history of so-called "Islamic" societies you'll find they made the most progress during the times they were the least religious. Regardless, any scientific discovery made by people who were Muslim where not "Islamic". That's what you don't seem to get. They were simply discovery's by people who may have been Muslim. Who know's?

Let's look at this in another way. Sir Isaac Newton was Christian. Do you consider Calculus "Christian Math?"

You write: the changes in the society upon the arrival of Islam were directly attributed to embracing Islam.

No they were not. They were for all sorts of reasons. Arabic was the new language because the people who conquered the Persian and Byzantine empires spoke Arabic. It really had nothing to do with what religion they were. Your own Patricia Crone article states that these early nomads didn't even consider themselves "Muslims". Take Baghdad for example, it was built 5 minutes drive from the centuries old Persian capitol on rivers that had held civilization after civilization for 1000s of years. The buildings were build by in the style of the people who lived there. They certainly weren't "Islamic" because Muslims hadn't built cities before.

- Mosques are modeled after a Temple to a Roman God (later adopted by Christians).
- The Qur'an was modeled directly after the Jeudo-Christian religion.
- The religious significance of Mecca is pre-Islamic.
- The "Islamic" veil is Christian in origin.
etc...

If there is something "Islamic" then it's something that developed centuries later and has nothing to do with math, medicine or science.

Islamic "values" are early Christian morals.


Yes, a lot of re-educating needs to take place that's for sure

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Note: Yes some "tenets" of Christianity needed to be dropped to develop western society.

Again, the more "Islamic" Islamic societies were the less they advanced and the less Islamic "Islamic" societies were the more they advanced. It's just you've been fed so much propaganda about "Glorious" "Islamic" Golden Ages and "Islamic" civilization you can't see past your own nose.

meh.... you ever do any Christian Calculus when you were in school?

 

Any scientific discovery made in the western society is also not western. Its just made in western society. Doh!~

Look up the changes in legislation and institutions made because of Quranic influences on Roman/Christian/Persian/Mongolian systems. Most of these societies abandoned their previous ideas of what constitutes a human being because of Islam to become so vastly secular that today even the west sees them all as one society [Turks, Persians, Arabs, Assyrians/Levantines, Somalians, Sudanese, Malaysians, Indonesians, Afghanis, Pakistanis, pick any Muslim country].

Most westerners can't even remember that Lebanon is half Christian or that Nigeria mostly is and that Palestinians also include Christians.

Its common now to think of all people as equal [and also socially acceptable] but before Islam, this was a novel and alien notion.

 

"The caning is now to be carried out around mid-September after Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and prayer, ends."

If you can't do the cane, don't drink the beer?

 

Au contraire. It's an amazing place, with wonderful people.

Just watch their smiles and cheerfulness disappear anytime anyone broaches the subject of religion. It's a damned shame that someone like SAM woke up one day a few hundred years back and thought they'd teach the little monkeys the "true way".
I'm sure the hypocrisy is quite evident.

... well, actually, judging from how everyone here picked up that little gem and took her to task for it, I'm not sure at all.

It never ceases to amaze how you people can swallow turds like this and continue to "debate" as if you're part of an intellectual discussion.
Not a single one of you even bothered to say anything about it, and continue to question her as if she's going to give you some insight.

and this?

Seriously. Insight? All I see is prejudice, fakery and intellectual cowardice. You're being served shit and you've been convinced it's a cream cake.

And this kind of stupidity:

which assumes that a topic can't be discussed in isolation without it meaning someone cares more about it than anything else. SAM said something like that too.
I like green buttons. SAM and Mike would extrapolate from this that I don't care about red ones, and will refuse to discuss green ones without first discussing my dislike of red ones, and why I should like the red ones.

...........

There was an article in the paper the other day about a guy who is a beggar in Sydney. He makes about $400 a day.
For every one who will ignore or abuse him, there are ten more who'll drop something into the hat. The opinions of those who refuse to give him money have long ceased registering, and he feels no shame. He doesn't need to be anything more than what he is... as long as the money keeps falling into his hat.
He'll be a beggar for the rest of his life, in all probability.

When I read that article, I thought of SAM, those like her, those who admire her, and those who continue to allow themselves to be taken in whatever direction she chooses to take them. Quasi-intellectual blowhards engaged in perennial mental masturbation.

And made a decision.

 

Thats an interesting observation. It expresses my feelings exactly about the lengths some people will go to, to maintain an illusion of tolerance in their "peace loving society" as it invades and occupies and kills to garner resources for their unsustainable lifestyles.

There is no shame, no remorse. The drones, the nuclear bombs, the white phosphorus, are all justified in the interest of "liberation" Obama keeps Guantanamo, continues rendition and gives directives to continue bombing hapless civilians in remote villages with no means of defending themselves. The so-called "free world" sends cannon fodder as it proclaims its stand on freedom. The Australians, English and Canadians, the Dutch and Danes and Germans all join this crusade to bring liberation by bombing to the backward savages, just as has been their base ideology forever.

But, "we" are still liberals with "democratic values" who "believe" in "freedom of expression". Even if we have to come to your country and kill you into accepting this.

 

Could you point to a time during history in a country where most people were Muslims where the Citizens in the country were all equal?

A time when
- women were equal to men
- there were no slaves and was no slavery practiced
- a prophet's word was no better than a commoners word
- a polytheist was equal to a monotheist
- a Caliph/Emperor's word was worth no more than a commoner

I'd like to see the dates because as far as I know - it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying it exists in GreecoRoman societies but I'd argue the Mongolians were quite meritorious. As a matter of fact, it's a reason why Mongolians were so successful (well that and their God damn awesome bows).


Lastly, Islam is essentially early Christianity mixed with Judaism and a new prophet. Ideologically there's really nothing new. As you yourself has attested to.

Maybe you should give credit to where credit is due?


Lastly, yes, the word "Western" is ambiguous. It's like saying "Today China told Japan to frack off" ... it's makes some sense, but not much

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The Mogolians were meritorious? Because they would slay anyone man woman or child for the khan? You have strange notions. One of the most famous Mongols is Genghis Khan, look up his history.

Meanwhile, why does an almost caning of a Malaysian warrant a thread from you, but Obama okaying the continuing of rendition does not? What is it about torture by Americans that makes it acceptable?

 

The thing I don't get SAM, is how you can understand it when it's against Muslims, yet, when it's Muslims doing the killing - then it's "Glorious"?

:shrug:

 

Let me know when "Muslims" send people to your country to liberate you by bombing your villages.

 

No, because Ghangus transformed the Mongolian society and army into one based on merit instead of birth. This was instrumental in Ghangus becoming such a successful warlord.


I'm waiting on the dates when in the Islamic system:
- women were legally equal to men
- there were no slaves and was no slavery practiced
- a prophet's word was no better than a commoners word
- a polytheist was equal to a monotheist
- a Caliph/Emperor's word was worth no more than a commoner

So? When?




Also, do you think it was ethical or unethical of the Europeans to have put an end to slavery within the so-called "Islamic" states? Should the Europeans have instead minded their own business OR is the selling of human flesh so horrendous that it must be stamped out wherever it is practiced?

 

1. The first Muslim madrassa was opened by a Morrocan woman. The first more than equal woman in Muslim history was Khadija, who was an equal partner to Mohammed.

2. When the Mamluks [slaves] became kings and established the Delhi Sultanate. When legislation based on the Quran resulted in two major principles, the presumption of freedom for each and every human being and the ban on the enslavement of free people.

3. All the time. Sharia has never been anything more than lightly based on the Quran or Hadith. In fact shura means council and is based on consensus, which is why there is no single system of sharia, it is whatever the government of any Islamic society decides it is.

4. When the scientists in the Islamic world based their work on Greek, Roman, Indian or Chinese works and gave legitimate credit to the actual writers rather than passing it off as their own work [as those in western society did with the works of other societies]

5. When the Sultan stood in line with the Jannisar slaves for his wages.

Have the Europeans put an end to slavery in their own states yet? Or just outsourced it as the Third world?

 

hence why they shun education specially for women.

it is all about control by the sword and keeping humans ignorant like cavemen and women servants to them with a few feudal lords.

 

Are you by any chance comparing yourself to me or inzomnia?

 

In some countries this is true but its not true for Islam as a whole, though its hardly progressive in its values.

You should watch this when you get the chance:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/islam-what-the-west-needs-to-know/

It explains why some muslims would think that caning a woman is 'just'.

 

Iran does it to Israel.

 

Which Israeli village did they liberate?