I live in the Earth, and the inside of the Earth has air. Why would I pump it out to remove the intermediate density layers, in order to change the position of the balloon's density position relative to the core, just to obtain a measurement? I remind you, I live IN the Earth, not outside it. Why should I have to pump air out of a room to get a specific result? I live in the Earth, and there is a density order inside the Earth. I have to change the density to get a result I am looking for? That is absurd. Do you acknowledge a density order? Do you understand why that order occurs? Gravity doesn't cause the order, gravity is a result of forcing an object away from its correct position in that order, and the object returning to its correct position when the force is released. Gravity is what returns the helium balloon to its correct position in the order. If the balloon is pulled down towards the core, when the force is released gravity returns the balloon to its correct position, which is further away from the core. So if a human sits in a car at the start of a 1/4 mile drag strip, and accelerates towards the finish line, are you saying the human actually gets further away from the finish line when the car accelerates? Do you really believe that?
Motor Daddy: Not really, no. So according to you the gravitational force is what pushes the helium balloon up away from the core if you force it downwards. In other words, you're proposing a repulsive gravitational force that pushes some objects away from the Earth - just like I thought you were proposing before but you denied. At this point, your position is inconsistent. Tell me what you really believe. You can't hold two contradictory opinions at the same time. Is there a repulsive gravitational force, or not? No. But in some frames of reference the finish line moves backwards, too - just at a slower rate than the human in the car. Get it?
I asked a professor of nuclear physics specializing in air dynamics and he was definitely perplexed by this question at first. His conclusion is that while the car is accelerating, the balloon would indeed move forward, but after the car is coasting steadily the air in the car will neutralize and the balloon would float straight. He told me the walls of the car will push and compact layers of air during acceleration, but because the car is sealed, the air will return to the initial state after acceleration. Comments welcomed.
He is correct. The acceleration has the same action as gravity. Makes the balloon have buoyancy toward the front of the car so long as car is accelerating. Accelerate a balloon hanging from the ceiling by a thread inside a box with no air and it will swing towards the rear. Calculating its equilibrium angle from vertical is easy, but I will leave that as "an exercise for the student." Hint to the clever student: Balloon always hang straight down in vacuum. Gravity is vector. You can just immediately write the answer in terms of g & G.
Compression of the air in the car has little to do with the problem. The balloon moves forward even if the air in the car is assumed to be an incompressible fluid, since the balloon as a whole is less massive than the amount of air it displaces. The easiest way to show this is to use the equivalence principle, establish an net acceleration vector field in the instantaneous frame of the car (nearly constant), construct a conservative potential field from that and show that quasi-static solutions of the balloon + air system is always at lowest energy state when the balloon moves in the direction opposite to "weight." Of course that is the functional definition of "lighter than air" and buoyancy.
You are looking at it from the Earth's core position. I am telling you that is not what is going on. There is a density order, the core the most dense, and as you get further from the core the density decreases. So say there is a helium balloon maintaining its distance from the core in the "air". It's not getting further or closer to the core, it is in its correct position. Now, you force the balloon towards the core, it will return back to its position when the force is released. You can "push" it down towards the core and gravity will "pull" it back, or you can "pull" it down and gravity will "pull" it back. Gravity is a repositioning to a proper order. You are the one that "pushes" or "pulls" the object. The "force" is a push pull, which is relative to where you are in relation to the balloon when you force it away from its position. The way you believe gravity works, there is no repulsive gravity relative to the core. The way I am telling you it works is from a different perspective, as I don't view gravity from the core of the Earth. I view gravity as a "repositioning" of an object to its correct position. It is not relative to the core, it is relative to its proper position. If an object is in its proper position, and then forced away from that position, it will return when the force is released. The object's motion is relative to its proper position, and the object returns to that position, so it always look attractive. But if you view gravity like you do, my view appears to not be attractive, as you always view the core as the point of reference, but that is wrong. Objects motion can be relative to the core, or it can be relative to a point 100' in the air. The object is forced away from its position. That could be towards the core or away from the core. You can force a helium balloon away from its natural position in the "air" towards the core or away from the core, but it is always away from its position, and returns to its position when the force is released. The returning motion could be moving towards the core or away from the core. Also, you said you don't acknowledge a density order. So an atom has a density order, the Earth has a density order, the solar system has a density order, the galaxy has a density order. Do you deny that? Do you know why that order exists?
To Motor Daddy: A piece of wood has lower density than water. Thus by your way of "thinking" it natural position is on top of the water. You seem total ignorant of buoyancy forces. Why boats float partially in the water, etc. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It is hard to believe that you could be so ignorant - are you just a troll? If not, read about buoyancy and Archimedes' principle (and my earlier post).
Really, I'm ignorant? Let's see, what is the acceleration of the wood floating on the water, towards the center of the Earth? What is a beach ball's velocity and acceleration towards the center of the Earth while it is on the beach? The density of the wood is by the mass of the entire piece of wood, and the volume of the wood. Hence, when the wood is placed on the water, most of the wood is above water, so that mass is still not in its correct position. Take a wooden ball and a more massive bowling ball of the same sizes (same volume). The bowling ball has a greater density, so it will come to rest in the ocean at a deeper level than the wooden ball, which most of the ball is still above the water level. You can bounce up and down and call it all kinds of different things, but the bottom line is that it is gravity that is doing the determining of where the balls will come to rest, and it is in direct proportion to the density of the ball and the density of the area it comes to rest in. BTW, the acceleration of gravity is the rate at which the velocity of the object is increasing or decreasing towards the center of the Earth. So again, what is the acceleration of the beach ball towards the center of the Earth while it is on the beach?
If you don't believe it, why don't you just go try it? It's a pretty easy thing to verify experimentally.
As you have been told many times before, your hypothesis fails to account for many celestial and terrestrial phenomena, including gold mines, other planets and stars, and the moon. Newton's universal gravitation is reconcilable with all of these.
Motor Daddy: Ah, I see. You're espousing a position that has no experimental or theoretical support, and pretending that it is real physics. Are you willing to discuss the issue, or will you insist of maintaining your silly position no matter how much I explain the correct physics to you? See, I don't want to waste my time trying to educate you if you're really not open to it, so let me know. What makes it return? A magical "proper positioning" force or influence? Or what? See, normally at least one force is needed to move an object that it is at rest from one position to another. I'm just using basic Newtonian gravity, that says that every piece of matter in the universe attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, and never repels it gravitationally. It's a theory that's 400 years old, tried and tested. So far, I can't even tell what you're trying to replace it with. Yes. Please explain the "density order" of the solar system for me, and tell me why it exists. Zero. There are two separate forces on the wood - gravity and the buoyant force of the water. The net force is zero. Zero. There are two forces on the beach ball - gravity and the force of the sand pushing upwards on the ball. The net force is zero. What's the "correct position", and how does the wood know where the "correct position" is? Are you saying bowling balls float on the surface? Or do you believe they sink to a certain level in the ocean and then stop? Or what?
In order to have a force you need an equal and opposite force. When you push an air filled ball under water, you are forcing the ball to a more dense area. That greater density is opposing your force. When you release your force the ball travels to its proper position, which is slightly submerged at the surface. Matter doesn't attract. If you want to get right down to it, the distance between object's centers increases, as in the distance between the center of the Earth and the center of the Moon, the distance between the center of the Sun and the center of the Earth, and the distance between the center of the sun and the center of the galaxy. All those distances are INCREASING, not decreasing. Where do you take your measurements to conclude the distances are decreasing? Those objects are getting further away from each other, not closer. The second law has my back on this. The density order exists because that is the natural order of matter to be at equilibrium in space (volume). As you get further from the core, the mass has to be dispersed into a greater volume, because the volume increases exponentially compared to the increase in radius. It exists because of the fact that there is no free ride, there is no perpetual motion. So take for example our Earth. The Earth is either getting closer to the sun, staying the same distance (perpetual motion), or moving away from the sun (second law). What say you??? Correct!! So you acknowledge the acceleration at the surface of the Earth is 0 m/s^2, because the velocity of 0 m/s is not increasing or decreasing? The correct position for a wood log is slightly submerged into the water, with some wood above the surface of the water, as the density of wood is less than water, but more than air. The water the wood displaces is proportional to the mass of the entire piece of wood. The volume of space the wood displaces in the water is not the entire volume of wood, as the wood's volume is partially above the surface. The forces are equal and the wood "floats", with some below the surface and some above the surface. So that is its natural position in that environment. Now, here comes the gravity part. The wood is in its proper position in the order. You come along and push it under the surface, towards the core of the Earth. When you release the force the wood moves away from the core, and surfaces. If you come along and lift the wood out of the water (away from the core), when you release it it moves back towards the core. Gravity works both ways relative to the wood's natural rest position. It's no different than lifting a rock and releasing it, or pulling down a helium balloon and releasing it. The wooden ball will be partially submerged, and partially above the water. The bowling ball will sink to a point where it is in the proper density order, in the ocean, where the density of the water is equal to the density of the bowling ball.
Yes and for very well understood reasons, related to tidal dissipation. To keep the moon orbiting the earth their must be an net attractive force directed to the mass center of the earth acting on it. If you swing a rock around you head at end of a fine string, that sting supplies the force required of it to keep it curving around your head. If you swing it a little faster, you can exceed the tensile strength of the string. i.e. cause string to break. Then the tensile force causing the rock to curve is gone and the rock will fly off in a straight line. Same is true of moon going around the Earth. If there were no gravitational attraction as you falsely claim, then the moon too would fly off into space in a straight line. James he seems to be hopeless pig headed stubborn. Just send thread to the cesspool, where it belongs. The balloon in car part was interesting but has been well explained (by me in post 45 and others).
Motor Daddy: Yes. Newton said that 400 years ago... How? Density can't oppose anything by itself. To oppose a force you need a force. Where does the force come from in this case that pushes the ball upwards? Explain. In fact, when you release the ball, it accelerates upwards, travels past its so-called "proper position", then falls back down again, possibly doing a few oscillations before settling. How do you explain that? What do you think keeps you attached to the Earth's surface in your day-to-day life? Why do you insist on ignoring one or more important forces in every interaction you talk about? I can only assume it's due to a lack of any clear understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong. Why is there a "natural order"? Do you have a theory for that, or is that just an unexplainable fact, according to you? The volume of what increases exponentially? Which second law? Explain. Yes. And it has nothing to do with density. You may have noticed in your everyday life that when you put any object on the floor, from a soap bubble to your body to a bowling ball to a glass of water to a feather to a solid gold brick, all of them just sit there on the floor. And they all do that despite having vastly varying densities. Why is that? In particular, why doesn't the gold brick fall through the floor to it's "natural position" deep within the Earth at the "correct" density position? Which forces are equal in this situation? You haven't named any forces. Be specific. So you're claiming that gravity is sometimes repulsive. Like I said before. Right? At what depth does that occur, roughly? Please give me your calculation.
