Atheism causes delusional idiocy and dishonesty

I think its wrong to impose your personal beliefs on anyone else. I only talk about my own beliefs when asked and even then I hesitate to make statements about stuff I haven't decided for myself. So I fully agree with you.

However, why not think that perhaps the person has good intentions at heart and excuse them? It makes life much easier.

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I think you'll find such people are motivated by fear and ignorance or are just deceitful and manipulative. Very little religion in there.

 

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Don't ask me...

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I don't see the point when it only applies to what is probably considered the least favorable reasons for believers, and does not contradict the more favorable reasons.

 

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It isn't, but for different reasons. Also, it's probably unintended most of the time.

 

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Huh, that is now the most surprising statement I have heard from you. Ok, I'll take it at face value and see how it matches future postings.

I've learned that evaluating both intention and result lead to better accuracy which is more important to me than raw ease.

I agree with the former statement and there are more motivators there as well. The latter statement I disaagree with as I have noted that harmful folks tend to know their religion very well.

 

Hahahahah.

It's not intended to be an appeal to emotion. It's an evaluation of the correspondence between the claim 'Allah' exists and actual reality. The evaluation shows the claim is false but also shows why the claim itself exists. It's rare that a believer can be influenced and it stems from a value conflict. Non-believers tend to value truth over their psychological needs if they have to choose. Believers tend to do the reverse.

 

should i go back and read 7 pages of this crap?

 

Why? So you can see the same argument going in circles?

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that's what i thought

 

why are you going to indoctrinate your children then? that's wrong, you said it yourself

why not think then that when a person directs a criticism at a belief system, they are indeed criticizing the system and not the person? why not take their word on it? It makes life much easier.

 

Exhumed,

What do I think? I think it's a fantastic idea. Undoubtedly, many hadiths are based on archaic, long-dead outlooks, none of which were initially Islamic. In fact, I've read too many thoroughly discredited, yet still revered, hadiths in my lifetime to view them as trustable and routinely applicable. The most significant hadith compilers omitted hundreds of thousands of hadiths, all of which were at the discretion of a few key individuals - the margin of error for such a method is endless. To add to the complexity of the hadiths, many people fabricated them (for various intents). Simply put, using hadiths with highly questionable origins in place of something such as, say, the Qur'an, is unIslamic and has no business in a society which claims to genuinely adhere to Islam.

S.A.M.,

An inexpiable error on your part, I'm afraid. If you would have read the first paragraph of the graciously provided link, you would have noticed the following:

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

Strike one.

Who cares what you have or haven't heard of? If such is a noteworthy argument, then I will add that I've never heard of a Deobandi scholar. Never. Does that somehow mean that the location I mentioned is lacking in scholars? Absolutely not. Merely, I don't know about them. Besides, how much recognition and appraisal would a Turkish scholar receive from the rest of the Muslim world, anyway? Most of the Middle East (especially the Arabs) strongly dislike Turkey, because we haven't induced our nation under ridiculously rigid and irreligious laws like they have.

They aren't attemping to discover new translations or meanings, as you erroneously implied. This carefully organized Turkish project is simply discluding hadiths contradictory to the Qur'an from the rest of the religious framework. It's high time these uncorroborated hadiths with unknown origins became disenfranchised, wouldn't you say? It's appalling to see grisly practices such as FGM supported by maliciously-fabricated hadiths.

Actually, secularism has been rooted in Turkey before Ataturk's rise. The Young Turk Movement has existed since the late 1800s. I advise you to actually read Turkey's history yourself instead of relying on Mr. Ali's website as your unimpeachable source of information.

Really? You call one organization (Harun Yahya's) as a "very active" movement? Anyway, that is beyond the point. Here are two things I am highly curious of:

1) Should it be illegal to teach Intelligent Design, considering 98% of Turkey's inhabitants are Muslim, and the remainder, for the most part, are monotheistic Christians and Jews?

2) You do realize that evolution is taught nation-wide in Turkey, from regular schools up to university, right? It's vital not to omit this crucial information. There may be stalwart creationists, but they seem to have little bearing on the actual educational system. It is always more central to the argument to discuss what is actually happening, as opposed to what could be happening potentially. As it stands, evolution is taught, and creationism (of any kind) is not.

Let's speak realistically, not ideally: many Muslims of all nationalities read the hadiths, and consider it as authoritative and reputable as the Qur'an itself. Somewhere the line must be drawn, and people must be educated on the matter - the hadiths are lightyears away from the Qur'an in terms of precedence. Highly questionable hadiths (take your pick: FGM approval, apostasy punishment, etc) should be discarded from the mainstream; however, never should they be destroyed altogether. Misinformation or information, every hadith serves its purpose: it would be irrational to forcibly remove all the hadiths speculated to be against the Qur'an.

If you want to honour expired, unIslamic hadiths, then so be it. It's interesting, you know - you're usually first and foremost in attacking the validity of many hadiths, and vociferously exclaim they should never take precedence over the Qur'an. You provide neat facts too, such as many hadiths were rejected by their initial composers (hinting towards the room for error in such methods), yet you dislike this movement by Turkey. In a nutshell, they are discrediting the hadiths which discredit the religion we're supposedly following. I'm guessing there is something else behind your critical approach to Turkey's modernity.

Oh, perhaps one of the most ironic things to ever strike the Muslim world. Honestly now, who can't help but laugh at the quotation above? What group of people are born into a language system which allows them to read Arabic? The Arabs. Which group of people in this world practice Islam the worst? The Arabs! Really now, the Iranians, the Turks, the Indonesians, etc, have never, by and large, read the Qur'an in Arabic (can you blame them?), yet they practice their religion far superior in comparison to their Arabic counterparts. I don't mean to generalize, of course, but it doesn't take too much effort to notice how poorly the Arabs have applied Islam to their lives.

Thank you for justifying this Turkish project. We've been saying this since we created our progressive, 630-year lasting empire. Nice to see you catch up.

Yes, but it is somehow fair to draw conclusions about Turkey based on the works of one man.

As far as you can see? Apparently, you can't see very far. Even weak hadiths are taken seriously by many Muslims, since there is a severe lack in religious knowledge on the part of most Muslims today (something you've personally admitted to in the past). If you think these hadiths are blatantly weak, then congratulations to you for doing your homework. For others who ignorantly cling to fabrications against Islam without even knowing it, this project will be unquestionably helpful. Also, they aren't destroying any information; simply, they are not including them in the mainstream understanding of religion, nor are they allowing the usage of them in the name of "Islam". The indication of how authentic certain hadiths are seems to fall upon deaf ears; these hadiths must forcibly be removed from the mainstream religious framework. There must be strong, confident strides to disassembling poorly-interpreted views of Islam, especially when those who espouse these views claim to be Muslims themselves. This is, without doubt, a step in the right direction.

Of course they don't have these rules enshrined within their constitution, just as many other nations don't. However, many Muslims, regardless of their nationality or country's laws and recommendings, justify their lifestyles using them. If this project can reach people at the individual level, then there will be no tool available to measure the successfulness of these highly necessary reforms.

To stubborn boneheads like you, it certainly is. It's ironic, though - you are vehemently disharmonizing with this project, even though it is essentially what you rave upon consistently in your posts. You wouldn't know a good deed if it...well, you know where I'm going with this. Instead of being appreciative, you're being highly cynical and unfair. Read what I've patiently taken the time to say, and consider the possibility that you may be wrong. Operative word: consider.

I don't say this with the utmost confidence, but was it not you who said reform was very much needed in the Islamic world? Incredible. I distinctly remember you encouraging and supporting reformative endeavours.

spidergoat,

Of course Osama Bin Laden is a hero in the Muslim world. He left his unparalleled riches and fortunes in Saudi Arabia for the caves of Afghanistan to dispel the land-seeking Soviets. His anti-American measures are incredible and worthy of honour.

 

When I see an unbiased and rational question, I'll answer it. I have nothing to offer anyone who begins an argument by calling me a delusional liar and expecting me to consider it an objective argument not directed at me.

 

Then your not going to do a whole lot of answering if you take every bit of criticismas an attack on you personall.

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You're a delusional idiot. I hope you take it in the right spirit.

 

You contraticted yourself. That is a fact regardless of any of my posts. If you want to leave our contratiction unjustified, that is fine with me.

A lot of what you said here doesn't make sense anyway.

 

Oh, but that is a personal attack, If you said I think that (blank) can turn people into delusional idiots, thats a different story. I guess it can be difficult to comprehend.

 

Thank you for your candor, that's what I thought [was the prevailing opinion in the Muslim world]. Is Osama inspired by Islam? To what degree?

 

no, it isn't difficult to comprehend at all

it boils down to, if you want to take it personal, no one will convice you of otherwise

pretty shitty way to live life if you ask me

 

I think a person calling me a delusional liar is very definitely a personal comment. I suppose I could regret not having your advanced capacities for seeing it as an objective criticism, but somehow I do not see a point to any discussion in such a case.

 

I agree

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Did someone call you a delusional liar?

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