Assisted suicide - thought?

I have the right not to engage in discussion with people / posts that I find offensive. Just like any other poster here.


From the Forum Rules:

 

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Have you noticed that it is only you and a few others who have this kind of problem with me (and some others)?


I am a perfectly nice poster.

But when someone is hostile, patronizing or contempting, I either ignore them, respond humorously, sarcastically, or report them.

 

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If every other aspect of your will is obeyed, why not this? People should have their own say on what happens to their own bodies.

 

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You realize that by replying to him you really didn't follow the rules? :bugeye:

 

Because it is so easy to abuse.

On principle, every seeming suicide needs to be investigated and the possibility of murder needs to be ruled out.

 

@wynn --

Please point out where I ever insulted you. I said that your position on this topic is full of shit because it demonstrably is since you apparently have literally nothing to support it other than the strength of your emotions, which isn't actually supporting your position. Never once did I actually insult you. Also, whether or not you find my posts to be offensive, aside from not actually being my problem, doesn't negate the position that I've put forth. An idea must stand on the strength of the evidence, not whether or not it was said in a manner that's pleasing to us.

And given that you have yet to give me any reason to treat you, and your ideas, with anything but contempt in this thread, I will continue to treat you the same way I treat my stepfather who does the exact same shit, which is with a lack of respect. You want respect then you must earn it, end of story.

 

Likewise.

 

Not an English word. "Contemptuous" is the word you are looking for.

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"Contempting" is a perfectly English word, a present participle, that I used as an adjective.

A loving husband is a husband who loves.
An adoring son is a son who adores.
A contempting man is a man who contempts.

 

@wynn --

But I don't want your respect, you're the one who apparently wants my respect despite the fact that you've done and said nothing to warrant it. I don't need your respect and I see no reason why I should want it. What I do want is your evidence. The evidence that you are supposed to be able to support your position with. I honestly think that that isn't too much to ask from someone who's on a thread in a science forum, do you?

 

In order to have a civilized conversation, mutual respect is necessary.

You've been over this with me and a few others how many times?

You want evidence of God, the soul, an afterlife etc. and you want that evidence on the terms of a reductionist version science.

We've discussed on numerous occasions how reductionism is not able to grasp the full extent and complexity of the phenomenon of life.

You nevertheless insist in your reductionism.

I don't have the willingness for yet another round of "reductionism with Arioch."

 

@wynn --

Bullshit. In order to have a civilised conversation both parties must be willing to extend common courtesy to each other. I've shown, on many occasions, that I'm capable of extending common courtesy to you when you deserve it. However the more inane your posts get and the less supported they are, the thinner my common courtesy grows. I am more than willing to "restart", so to speak, with you once you agree to start supporting your posts and at least try to avoid logical fallacies. And I'm hardly the only one who wants you to do this.

Oh, you mean I want it in terms of the only path to knowledge that we know works? Of course I do!

Furthermore you say reductionist as though it were a bad thing. Reductionism has been wildly successful in science, especially in the biological sciences, to the point where the "reductionist" theory of evolution has become the cornerstone on which literally all of modern biology rests. Your desire for us to include mystical pseudoscience is patently ridiculous.

And you've been utterly unable to demonstrate a single one of those claims. Anything which can be asserted without evidence can(and should) be just as easily rejected without any evidence.

Because it demonstrably works, and a hell of a lot more frequently than any alternative method that's been tried. You may not like it, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Tired of having your arguments shown to be worthless or just plain wrong? I can see how that would get old after a while.

 

Feel free to reduce yourself.

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@wynn --

So, can you answer my question now?

 

Peter Goodwin, aid-in-dying advocate, ends his own life at 83

"The Portland physician died Sunday in his home after using lethal chemicals obtained under an Oregon law he championed."

Dr. Peter Goodwin

 

What Frag said, wynn.

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***

My old mom moved into a nursing care facility June 10, 2003 after my dad died. She had Parkinson's, COPD, vascular dementia, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure and severe osteoarthritis. She was wheelchair - bound and all of her teeth had been removed due to being rotten down to the gums. She was on many maintainence medications, was mostly bed - ridden and got sores on her legs from peripheral arterial disease. She tossed her glasses shortly after moving in to nursing care, quit using her dentures as well and was incontinent (that means she wore a diaper that had to be changed frequently). She was in a lot of pain most of the time.

Feb 1, 2011, a little more than a year ago, the nursing care called me and told me that she had stopped eating and drinking. When I arrived at the facility I found that she had also stopped taking her meds and had removed her oxygen tube. I told her that if she did not go back to eating and drinking and taking her meds that she would for sure die. She dismissed me so I said goodbye to her and left. She had given me strict instructions by way of a written "Do Not Resuscitate - No Extraordinary Measures" order that she was not to have extraordinary measures given her, no force - feeding or CPR etc. The nurses tried to get me to override that order, but she had already made up her mind and I had to follow her directions as I was her POA and POAM with signed documentation so I declined to override her will. They later told me that only 1 out of 100 residents survived CPR and those few had broken ribs from the procedure and ended up in hospital with tubes stick in them for the last few miserable days of their lives. Old mom was 88 years old when she died. Her nurse was next to her holding her hand when she died, she said that mom passed peacefully - went to sleep and then quit breathing.

By choosing to stop taking her meds, eating or drinking she killed herself - committed suicide. Now the question is this: did she have the right to do that? It would appear that some of us would say no. Some of us would say that she should have been hospitalized, tube fed and had her meds given to her forcibly. Against her written will.

Would those same persons then claim that I was somehow complicit in her death by doing what I was legally obligated to do in following her will? Hows about when I had the neurosurgeon remove the breathing tube from my dads mouth? He had a major cerebral artery tear that had not been repaired 4 days after he fell and was injured and most of his brain was dead by then. He also had a written DNR order that he had instructed me to follow.

FWIW they were both devout evangelical Christians.

So do you really think that I am now guilty of murdering both of my parents because I did as they asked me to? If so, would you be so kind as to explain to me why you would think that and what you figure I should have done instead?

 

My story is a little different. I was young and naïve when my father died. He was 51. He had idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. The cause was unknown but all of his siblings had died from it, as well. He was on a transplant list, but like most patients with IPF, he died from complications due to pneumonia. He might have lasted a little longer if the doctor had prescribed the correct antibiotics for the type of pneumonia that he had. He was seeing a lung specialist in the city, but in the end, his family practitioner treated him. He was new and mistakes happen.

However, he promised me that he wouldn’t suffer. He said that he could have as much morphine as he needed. He explained the whole process, and how he’d eventually slip into a coma, but he kept waking up, grasping for breath, and he was very afraid. The whole process took about 5 days. My father made me promise that I’d get him more morphine whenever he squeezed my hand, but when I went to locate his nurse, she informed me that he had received the legal limit. He suffered terribly and so did I.

The day after he passed away his lung specialist called me. When I told him what had happened, he lost his temper, cursed a little, and then told me that they had given him the wrong antibiotics, and that there was no such thing as a legal limit. We met with the medical board, who after speaking with the nurse, told us that she did not want to contribute to his death, due to her religious beliefs. It was a religious hospital.

Of course, they were very concerned about a lawsuit, but the story became public, and that was enough for me.

I believe in the right to die but this guy does have some valid points.

Do people have the right to choose when to die?-Bigthink.com

 

A perfectly legitimate way to end your life morally, ethically and honorably. But assisted suicide should be done through a separate medical profession; supervised but performed by the suicider. . Kevorkian and others were/are doing it discreetly but it's time to make it available to everyone as an option.