The other day I ran into a posting in another forum where it talks about how the higher caste of Indians are genomically closer to Europeans and that the lower caste people are close to Asians. The higher caste of Indians have this belief that they are superior and smarter than the lower caste and this proves their point. Using this new found study in gene research, it can be used to discriminate the other caste members. According to statistics the Asians are generally smarter than Whites (ref: The Bell Curve). So , then the lower caste can prove that they are really smarter than the so called upper caste people. Sometimes research can backfire if the intentions are not noble.
And the tallied figures are in... The book The Bell Curve really created a rukus. Those not at the top of the list were for a large part irate. Most vocal that I heard was from the black community. (or that was the slant the news media put on it). It listed (if I remember correctly) the order of intellgence to be: Asian peoples European peoples Causian peoples Black peoples Now I don't know about you but I know that I am not the smartest cookie in the jar. I'm not a genius, I don't have that impecable background, and I am not as edcuated as I would wish to be. So what? How did that raise or lower the price of eggs? The world didn't stop and let me off and that's cool. In fact it's the same one I woke up to today. So why fuss?
I think that Asians show up as smarter because they put in som many study hours. You see, if you get less than probably 9 out of 10 you get one hit for each mark lower you scored. Everyone in Australia say that Asians are good at Maths. This is because they tend to study and work harder than other countries because they have a higher work ethic, as well as this, you don't want to bring shame to the family. Also, I dislike the caste system in India. I think its really unfair. All men are born equal. [Men as in Mankind]
If you believe that Deadwood, come to New York City - I've got a beautiful old bridge I'd like to sell you. No more than 'all men' can run a four minute mile, even with intensive training, can 'all men' solve a complex quadratic equation or write a symphony. The only 'equality' guaranteed should be equality before the bench (in the eyes of the law). Other than that, you should be free to succeed or fail, live or die, based on your abilities.
Deadwood: The point of my posting is not to create an IQ debate (which we could do that in another posting) but to draw an attention to the fact that when you try to use scientific means to discredit or discriminate a whole group of people, it can backfire. You are correct in the assumption that the work ethic and culture has a lot to do with why Asians do good in school. Some years ago, when my kid was in second grade, I was spending a lot of time in travel (to China), so I could not help him in his homework. First few tests in Arithmatic, he got 30 out of 100 average(5 minute test). The thirty problems he solved were all correct. I was called to school to see if he needs to go to a remedial system. I asked time for 2 weeks and worked with my son. The next score was 85. At first the teacher thought he cheated and copied from another student. Then slowly the scores went up to 97. What I found out was that he was so meticulous to make sure it is correct that he will stay will the same problem longer than necessary and there was a time limit for those problems. Several years ago, I hired a programmer who was very fast. What I did not know is that she was consistently wrong 8%. So the work had to be redone everytime. We lost a lot of time and money. A friend of mine just hired an Asian, thinking she should be smart and deligent. We found out she is very good in repeat work but does not take initiative or aware of change. So we have to spend some time retraining her to think dynamically. It is not my intention to put one group over the other, for the simple reason is that within the group, bell curve is applicable too, which means a smart person from a lower group is higher up than an average person from a higher group. And an average person from anygroup, if has a lifelong learning habit can beat anyone in anygroup at any level (personal experience).
All of these ethic groups/races have created amazing feastes of engineering, education, and academia. I don't know if any of these groups if give the same exact schooling and upbringing would have a higher IQ, or weather it would be that one tries harder, or can more quickly absorb knowledge. If you look at all of these cultures you will find amazing examples of intelligents through the ages.
Sorry kmguru, but did you find my post at all relevent. I personally, don't really believe IQ Tests. Because I have one that is between 153 and 159. So I don't really believe it. But yes, science can discriminate. Like if insurance companies start using DNA, I'm in a lot of trouble. lol Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! all of my years at an insurance company being loyal would be wasted. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But by all men are born equal I didn't mean financially or mentally, but by having basic human rights. This is an olympic ideal. In the context of the caste system, I believe that this ideal should stand(all men are born equal). However, many times in this world that is not the case(probably an understate by exponential means). Sorry for going off topic kmguru.
Deadwood, You or I could start a new topic under "Castes of India" either under World Affairs or Eastern Philosophy. I can explain why it was created and how it is abused (like many things in our society). It is a classic struggle between Democracts and Republicans in the sense that one group wants to socialize everything, the other group feels an elite group deserve the reward since they earned it. If I am successful in my business and become filthy rich without breaking any laws and groom my children to take over that business, society should not go against me. Should it? It is a classic debate, and you are welcome to it.
Aren't IQ tests lobsided? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they only measure pattern recoginition, comprehension, and mathmatic skills, leaving out historical, and writing abilities? I think those have to have some effect on a person's intelligence.
kmguru ... What I'm going to say in replying to your following statement might more appropriately be posted under 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' but for convenience, I will post it here. I seriously believe that in an egalitarian society, making yourself rich by legal means would not be a problem. But, the passing of your personal wealth on to your children would be. Were you to be successful in 'grooming' your children to manage the business you leave to them, they too will accumulate wealth, but on their own. If they fail, and loose the business, that too would be of their own doing, their failure to learn from you. One of the great things in this country is that, supposedly, if you have the ability, you will succeed. Only it doesn't work that way a good part of the time. Else why would there be the old saw: 'The easiest way to get ahead is to marry the boss's daughter'? Or to go to the 'right' school where you become a part of the 'old boys' network. I think President Bush is an excellent example of the 'system' at work and the antithesis of a free enterprise system based on merit.
thecurly1 ... There are quite a few different ones in an attempt to address the 'lopsidedness' that you refer to. Not being familiar with a number of the newer ones, I'll have to fall back on personal experience. The one I took, in the early '60's, covered not only the things you mentioned, but also things like manual dexterity, imagination, and even artistic skills and took three days. For whatever reason, that test is no longer used. Maybe because it was rather time consuming. I don't know. Also, I think that your comment 'those have to have some effect on a person's intelligence' might better be stated as also 'indicating' a person's intelligence. And I agree.
On the 'old boys network' , I might add that the society favors such activities. One does not learn any more how to solve a quadratic equation or program in javascript in Harvard than a decent college in Texas. Mostly people go to Harvard or similar colleges is to network (the old boys network). Is that fair? Ford motor company is installing another Ford (the great grandson I think) at the company to improve its image even though Ford family has 4% of the stock and 40% of the voting power (my figures need to be checked). If he does well, the money is well spent. The old adage 'it is not what you know but who you know' is still the major component of business sales and marketing to-day. On the IQ side, thecurley1: Intelligence still means "The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge." People have tried to create different tests to measure such capacity with not so good result. It is the tests that are at fault and not the person. The latest is to measure the electrical activities of the brain while some pictures are flashed on the screen. It too will fail. The brain is more complex than that. That does not mean there is no such thing as intelligence. It is there. The Bell curve is still applicable. We can see the effects but do not have any device yet to measure it accurately.
kmguru, it would be interesting to here your thoughts about how the caste system is abused, and/or if it was ever fair? I would like it if you could write something up in probably the eastern plhilosophy thread? I think thats the most appropriate, since its more philosophy, rather than abortion, genome etc which is ethics. Anyway, both threads are relevent, my opinion is that Eastern philosophy would be best. Thanks Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I think that the original idea behind the caste system, was to keep the races separate, this was an early form of apartheid as practiced by the new conquerors, the Aryans which over-ran the Dravidians. Whether, the original idea was religious purity, or putting the newly conquered in 'their place', the affect was the same, racism. I read long ago, that the Dravidians were related to the Negroid peoples that stretch from Africa, into India ( Dravidian ), to Australia (Aborigines), Melanesia and into the Philippines ( Negritos ). Now they're Asians? Is that in the same way, that the Ainu of Japan are Asians? By the way, after thousands of years, there's been enough hanky-panky, that the races have mixed to a greater degree than the original conquerors had planned. Also, read about the so-called 'Bandit Queen' that was just killed, she was an untouchable. And I think this thread is in the right category, since it affects how a nation of almost a billion people 'see the world' around them.
Whether it was armed invasion or bedroom invasion (like the British did before taking over India), we will never know. But there is some truth to the apartheid issue. If South Afrika gets well integrated, in 3000 years we may have have all brown people.... This is my 500th post, so I needed to babble....
