Are Infinitesimals Really Numbers?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by TruthSeeker, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you for that comprehensive response. Much food for thought.
     
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  3. Counter Registered Senior Member

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    Ahhh truthseeker. It would never arrive.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Is a zero mass muon, infinitely small? Does it generate a wave function?
    Can an infinitely small particle acquire mass from it's speed alone?
    In a *quantum* world , can there be such a thing as infinitely small?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  7. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    Those are questions of physics, not math. I don't know what physicists say about point particles these days. Aren't they wiggles in some probability space or something? I don't know much physics.

    But I doubt anything could be "infinitely" small in the real world. We can't even sensibly talk about anything below the Planck length so how could we know? Maybe some physics people can chime in here. What do physicists think about really tiny particles?
     
  8. Counter Registered Senior Member

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    437
    I have a similar thought. Should we walk TO a location, only going half the distance each time, would we ever arrive?

    The formula is something like:

    a=0
    b=1
    1:
    b=b/2
    a=a+b
    goto 1

    or...

    1-(2^x)

    We would never arrive. The formula is infinite, despite the fact computers round the number to 1 at about 35/36 tries.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    We would. This is Zeno's Paradox. And it's been resolved.
     
  10. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    345
    I'm not one who agrees with that. Of course the standard answer is that calculus shows that \(\sum_{i=1}^n \frac{1}{2^n} = 1\) end of story move along nothing to see here.

    I am not satisfied. That is the mathematical answer, of course. But Zeno was talking about the physical world. As of the present moment physics has no referent for summing up an infinite series or taking a limit. We're told it's not sensible to even ask what happens below the Planck scale. Whether the world is discrete or continuous, and whether the modern formalism of the real numbers is the right model of the world, are open questions. These matters are not settled. The mathematical theory of convergent infinite series does not resolve Zeno's paradoxes.

    That is my opinion, but if someone can talk me out of it I'd be grateful. It's tedious to be the one to claim that calculus doesn't resolve Zeno when so many people think it does.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,595
    Since we know it works in the physical world, and the calculus simply describes it, what partly exactly do you find hard to believe?

    It works in practice; it works in theory. What's left?
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,571
    When we walk we do not reduced the distance between points, we relatively increase the distance covered by our step which (at that scale) keeps getting larger until is larger than half the entire remaining distance between points......

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  13. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    I'm afraid I don't see how it works in theory. No physical theory justifies the notion that there are infinitely many "points," whatever they are, between two locations in space. To be clear:

    * No physical theory discusses or posits an infinite quantity of quarks, atoms, strings, loops, or subatomic gizmos of any kind; and

    * No physical theory defines something called a point.

    These are purely mathematical notions that have no known referents in the physical world according to the best contemporary physical theories.

    And you can't add up those really tiny distances, the ones smaller than the Planck length, because in physics we can't speak meaningfully about them at all.

    Once you separate the math from the physics. you have no infinite sums. In my minority opinion of course. Most people agree with you.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,571
    I agree. if QM is correct and information propagates in quanta, there must be space between the change of states.
    In a binary universe (on/off) reality would be manifest only 1/2 the time, the other 1/2 would be in *quantum suspension* (implicate potential) and not manifest.
    All of this would be beyond our experience.
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,595
    The math shows it working in theory; the physical action shows it working physically.
    I ask again: what is left?
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,571
    Question: Instead of asking for a *number*, might it be more productive to ask if infinitesimals have *values*. No value = 0
     
  17. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    345
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length :

    (My emphasis on that last phrase).

    Now the Planck length is given as \(1.616229(38) \times 10^{-35}\) meters. How many Zeno steps is this?

    For a back-of-the-envelope Sunday morning calculation we can just call the Planck length \(10^{-36}\). Then

    \(log_2 (10^{-36}) = -36 \times log_2(10) \approx -36 \times 3.3219 \approx -119.56 \approx -120\).

    So if we are trying to cover a distance of one meter in discrete steps, each step covering exactly half the remaining distance, it will take us a mere 120 steps or so before the distances involved are so small that it is meaningless to reason about them. That's the point where known physics diverges from the mathematical theory of the real numbers.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,595
    OK, so you can't move a half a Planck length.

    Your attempt to reduce each step by half fails at that scale; the smallest distance you can move is one Planck length.

    All you've done is conclude that the physical world does not go smaller than Planck units - something we already know.
     
  19. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    345
    A stronger statement is at work: The question of "moving half a Planck length" is not even meaningful. It doesn't have a truth value at all. It's not true, it's not false. It's not a meaningful question about the world.

    I did no such thing. I don't see how you concluded that from what I wrote. I took what's known about physics, and I calculated the number of Zeno steps after which no more lengths can be added, because at that scale there are no meaningful lengths.

    Math \(\neq\) physics.
     
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  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,571
    Hmmmmm.....maybe math guides physics? IMO, this the uncertainty effect. The guiding maths becomes only measurable after the quantum event. But all physical functions and reactions (patterns) have a form of mathematical logic, if your perspective of abstract universal potentials that can create everything which is mathematically permitted can be imagined, the mathematical functions themselves are relatively simple.
    In that context, even "adaption" is a mathematical (chemical) readjustment of cells and body functions for maximum efficiency in the new environment.

    IMO, Intelligence is the ability of an organism to *cognize* (understand) and utilize information from their immediate environment.
    Specialization (a branch of evolutionary functions) is relative to locality, Variety and adaptive powers (a different branch of evolutionary functions) is global in scope.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017

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