Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Beaconator, Jun 2, 2014.

1. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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I think I said that, that the ice cube gets warmer and the water gets colder, until they are 1 temperature.

But you claim there is 1 kw-hr of energy somewhere after I operate a 100 Watt light bulb for 10 hours. Where is it? Where is the energy in the water after the ice melts? Where is the energy in the gallon of gas, and how is it distributed?? So many questions for you to answer, and you keep talking about ice cubes melting...

Calculated? I thought you said energy was distributed, and spread out? Now energy is a calculation and not a distribution or a spread?

Help me out, you're killing me!

3. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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How do you think the ice cube gets warmer? Energy flows from the water to the ice.

Some of it is in the light. Some of it is in the heat. The heat from the bulb will, in turn, heat up the room. The energy will continue to flow away from the bulb as long as energy is flowing into it (and even after, until the temperaure equilibrates}.

It's still in the water (except for any that leaks out of the glass into the room).

Some of it is converted to mechanical motion in the car. Some is convertd to heat. Some is retained in the chemical bonds of the exhaust. The heat spreads out from the car into the atmosphere. The exhaust also speads out into the atmosphere.

Yes, the distribution can be measured and calculated. What's mysterious about that?

5. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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How much energy flows from the water to the ice, and how much from the ice to the water, and where is the energy in the water at the end when the ice is melted, and how is the energy distributed? The gallon of gas too!?

How much energy is in the light? How far away is the light?

That sounds like potential energy? We are not talking about potential, we are talking about actual (what happened in the past, and how much work and time?)

Everything! To start with, the time. 10 hours elapsed, where is it? How is the time related to energy?

7. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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4,236
Energy flows from the water to the ice, not from the ice to the water. Enery can only flow from high to low, just like water. The energy in the water is in the water as I said. When the water is at an even temperature, the energy is evenly distributed.

It depends on how much electrical energy you put in and how efficiently it is converted to light.

The photons that left the bulb at 10 AM are one hour times the speed of light farther away than the ones that left at 11 AM.

There is no fundamental difference between potential energy and any other form of energy. They are all easily interconverted.

You're already over your head with the simplest concepts. When you understand that energy flows, we can get into the flow rate.

8. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. You use the word energy like it's some cure all for everything you can't explain. It's laughable!

Electrical energy? What, Power*time?

Again you seem to think the word energy is some tangible, when in fact it's a mathematical calculation of power*time, and the TIME isn't over until it's over. There is no potential about it! 100 Watts for 10 hours is 1kw-hr of energy, PERIOD! It is NOT 1kw-hr of potential energy. It is not a gallon of gas, it is an hour ride in a car up a hill! Duh?

Wrong again. A gallon of gas has a potential to do work over time. A potential to do work and doing work are two different animals. Work that was done was measured energy. A gallon of gas, well, unless you burn it it's useless! But burning it takes time!

You don't even understand what a unit of energy is. You don't understand what a kw-hr is. You don't understand the difference between operating a light bulb for 10 hours and having a gallon of gas sit in the garage for 10 hours. Laughable!!

9. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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It's the same energy, just in different places at different times. Energy moves.

You're the one who brought up entropy. Are you aware that entropy is a themodynamic quantity? Are you aware that thermodynamics concerns energy (thermo/heat) and movement (dynamics)? Bottom line: entropy is about the movement of energy.

10. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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The gallon of gas is not energy. Prove it!

I mean show me how much work the gallon of gas does while it's in the can in the garage for 100 hours. How much work was done in the 100 hours while the gas was in the can?

11. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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The gallon of gas contains energy: chemical energy (which you can convert to mechanical energy in your car), heat energy (which you could use to melt an ice cube), even gravitational potential energy (which you could convert to kinetic energy to run a turbine).

12. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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So the gallon of gas contains heat energy, and yet it doesn't melt a plastic gas can?

Come on, if I lit the gallon of gas on fire it would melt the plastic gas can, possibly even explode the can into small pieces under the right conditions. So how does the plastic gas can contain all that heat energy while the gas is not lit, and the can not melt?

13. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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The water contained enough heat energy to melt the ice but not enough to melt the glass. No mystery there.

Yes, because the fire is the chemical energy beng released. There's more chemical energy than heat energy in the gasoline.

The can only contains its own heat energy and the gasoline contains its own heat energy.

14. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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The gas is not on fire, it is in the can. It is not melting the can, and yet you claim it contains heat energy.

If the gas contained heat energy it would be melting the plastic can, but it's not. So no heat energy!

If you want to tell stories about what you claim you can do with a can of gas in the future, GREAT! Call it Potential. For now, the gas is in the can and the time is elapsing and the can is not melting! The can did not melt last night, or even the past 2 weeks in the garage while it just sat there, not heating up, not melting the can, and not exploding. It was just a gallon of gas in a plastic can, not melting, for 2 weeks!!

15. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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It doesn't contain enough heat energy to melt the can. What do you not understand about that?

16. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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That's what I said, it doesn't contain heat energy because the can isn't melting. You're the one claiming the gas has heat energy. Prove it. Show me how the can melts due to the gas having all that heat energy you're talking about??

17. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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Do you know what the word "enough" means? I have money but I don't have enough money to buy Texas. The gasoline contains heat energy but it doesn't contain enough heat energy to melt the can.

18. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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So the gas basically contains the same energy as water does, as long as they are at the same temp, 72 degrees?

19. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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The same "kind" of energy, yes, but not necessarily the same amount.

If you drop an ice cube into the gas can, will it melt? If it does, where did the heat come from?

20. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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Why did you quote "kind?"

21. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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Don't be confused by details. Do you understand now that water and gasoline both contain the same heat energy that melts an ice cube?

22. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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We are not talking about melting ice cubes in gas. You made a claim that the gas has energy, and that energy is distributed (spread out) in the gas.

What units will you be using, kw-hr? How do you plan to measure that phenomenon??

23. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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Sure we are. An ice cube melts in gasoline the same way it melts in water, and for the same reason - because heat (energy) is transferred from the liquid to the ice.

If there is no heat (energy) in the gasoline, what melts the ice? If it is not distributed throughout the gasoline, where is it? At a single point?

You don't need to worry about the units unless you're measuring a quantity. For now, all you have to understand is that the gasoline contains heat energy as well as chemical energy.