Reply to Tiassa... Last time I checked, 70% of people passing through prisons committed crimes again once released. Often worse crimes. Absolutely, prisons turn petty thieves into truly dangerous bastards. This needs to be worked on in two ways: a prison system as already described, which seperates the violent offenders from the non-violent; and overall social changes which introduce the idea that material wealth isn't so damn great. Of course, for anyone to believe that you actually have to wipe out poverty and starvation. Cruelty? How so? Nice to toss out such terms, but how do you possibly arrive at them? I recommend removing from society those already proven to be dangerous to that society's members. And temporarily imprisoning non-violent offenders and giving them opportunities at education and rehabilitation. I'm starting to suspet you have not actually read my posts but like to toss out this rhetoric just for a laugh. A figure of speech. I have made quite clear in other threads why I do not like capital punishment. All covered quite extensively, and many times over for you. Those who are non-violent get education and rehabilitation if they want it. If they commit crimes again, they go back in. Again, I have covered my position on capital punishment thoroughly in other threads. Again, I must assume you simply do not read what people post. Maybe you are too eager to skip past it all and make your points, such as this one. I had thought better of you. But this entire paragraph of yours clearly says "I have not read, or choose to ignore, everything you have said about your position on capital punishment". I'm not sure about the laws there, but here, as long as the ID has been checked, it is not the responsibility of the bar or its staff. I don't see that they've broken any laws, at least not our laws. Not sure about there. As for the guy you know, his behaviour, well, maybe picking up drunk girls for a shag upon first meeting them is an indication of poor judgement in general. Maybe he's not a nice chap. Maybe he's a great chap. I don't know. But those laws, as I said, are there to protect young people from older people. They need to exist. The girl should have been charged for possessing and using a fake ID. Maybe also charged as a minor for unlawful sexual activity, whatever it's called there. Of course for her to be charged in such a manner, her unwillingness would have to be proven. What this comes down to, if you wish to void the standing laws designed to protect children, is that you need to scan peoples' brains and discover their thoughts and motives regarding the events. Would that not violate your ideas on civili rights? As you know (I hope), it's very schoolyard-ish when people put such things in their posts. It indicates only negative personality traits. In future, perhaps you should refrain from poking your tongue out and calling people names, and just stick to the material at hand. But then, I recall in our first discussion, when I mentioned the abstract concepts involved in the USA's actions in Afghanistan, you read the words the way you wanted and assumed I thought the USA was a paragon of virtue. This type of interpretation is something I try not to do, as it is rarely productive.