Abortion

Why should anyone take you seriously?

I'd say that is what's ridiculous. The point is about the inconsistency of many within the anti-abortion crowd.

I'm never particularly surprised at these sleights of rhetoric by conservatives. What I don't get, though, is whether we're supposed to take you seriously and believe you really are as stupid as you pretend, or remind you that if you're not going to take the issue seriously, there's no reason we should take you seriously.

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And congratulations to you, Lou. You couldn't possibly be any more dishonest.

To reiterate a point: I'm never particularly surprised at these sleights of rhetoric by conservatives. What I don't get, though, is whether we're supposed to take you seriously and believe you really are as stupid as you pretend, or remind you that if you're not going to take the issue seriously, there's no reason we should take you seriously.

The issue pertains to another of your sleights of rhetoric:

Lou: Explain to me the qualities a new born baby has that an unborn baby doesn't?

Tiassa: Independent existence.

Lou: I'm 24 and I'd say I'm just starting to reach the level of independent existence now, not completely just yet, let's not get carried away, but soon enough.​

If you're incapable of figuring out the difference, you should probably educate yourself a little better before taking part in the debate. As it is, all you're doing is embarrassing yourself and your anti-abortion colleagues.

 

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So why not start with laws that help the millions of children/people already in poverty and once you can take care of them then maybe people will be alot less likely to have abortion. I however dont see that happening anytime soon

 

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Throughout human history we have regarded it a crime to kill during peacetime, and a glorious act of heroism to kill during wartime. That's just a fact of life. If you want ot live in some fantasy world in which there is no war, go ahead.

But here in the real world, we have war. Which has certain rules (very few). And we have peace, which has a completely different set of rules. The two are completely separate and trying to apply the rules of one to the other doesn't work.

Constantly trying to equate the two is nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick that does nothing to advance the discussion.

 

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to me abortion is wrong because if your old enough (not including the people who are raped) to lie down and open your legs then your old enough to reap the rewards, children to me (my opinion) are a blessing, and they shouldnt be thrown away lightly!

 

Shorty im sorry but your wrong about that. My partner had to take the morning after pill and it says clearly on the box that it WONT cause an abortion, will just prevent a fertilised egg implanting not kill one that is already implanted

 

No. This is why you meet such absolute and uncompromising opposition - people are afraid of the kinds of laws you people are capable of imposing. Change does not start with laws imposing your cult beliefs on every woman in the country.

I think your position is wildly wrong, and furthermore I don't believe you hold it - it's too goofy. The only time you think a conceived egg is a human being is when some woman wants to destroy one for her own reasons - the rest of the time you collect miscarriage stats separately from infant death stats, refuse to allow an embryo to be counted as a dependent on the tax forms or in a census, deny "wrongful death" lawsuits against causers of miscarriage, dispose of ectopic and miscarried embryos as medical waste, etc etc etc.

 

That is what it is all about-helping people. Placing blame on someone for committing abortion would be wrong. Justifying, legalizing, sanitizing it is wrong. Roe vs wade is construed from a wrong idea. Legalized abortion has nothing to do with the woman. It is murder of a child. And legalizing it and then blaming the woman's societal condition (whatever the circumstance) is just a way for society to turn a blind eye to IT'S responsibilities. Not the woman's. Not only is society HELPING the woman commit the atrocity they say is for their (the woman's) own good but this abortion law is in fact a way that society IGNORES it's own problems. The woman and circumstances are unimportant to the issue. She is a victim. Why to people who support abortion not see this? Woman in this country are being victimized and babies are being killed with legal consent in the shameful act of ignoring what is wrong in this country. And then the argument is held up about point of life and the "ownership" of woman's bodies and the whole point (babies being murdered) gets muddled. For the love of God or whatever truth you seek are you blind?
Granted there are many problems in the world, but the killing of innocents has got to stop. Murder will probably always be a fact of life, but must we legalize it and victimize woman as well?

 

you seem to be taking the same dishonest stance many of "pro-life" people take. that the pro-choice people are pro-abortion we are not we just think it should be a legal CHOICE but we do want to lower the number of abortions

 

It's wrong whats being done. And our laws allow it. Women are being victimized and the name of them not being victimized. Funny if you had a dark sense of humour.

 

as far as I'm concerned, til a man can get pregnant, he has no say in it. men can get a women pregnant and walk away. We are left with the mess they left behind.

I don't know why some of you think us pro-choice people want abortions. I just want it to be legal in case my daughter ever gets pregnant she's not getting a coathanger shoved up in her in some filthy hovel. I want it to be safe. Keeping it legal is the only way that is going to happen for my daughter, my grand-daughters, etc.

You wanna think of the fetus? How about thinking of the person who is actually breathing.

 

Of course it's about the baby. I couldn't care less about whether or not the mom is a slut. I care about human life. As I said, at some point in the pregnancy the "fetus" comes a baby. We can argue at when that is.

You can say it's only when the "fetus" has passed thru the magical birth canal. Or 24 weeks. Or six weeks. Or even conception.

But because I define life at one point, and you define it at another, doesn't mean I want to "control" women.

 

Exactly! :worship:

 

Why is honesty so hard to come by with anti-abortionists?

Even though you are, technically, incorrect, I get what you're saying. Do you understand that notion? Or should I split the hair that it's not a crime to kill during peacetime. In fact, you advocate killing during peacetime.

Now then, despite that, yes, I get what you're saying. And my response is that for millennia, women have been treated as subordinates to men despite the fact that females are generally the majority among humans. Throughout human history, we have gone with the "might equals right" philosophy, and look at what it has gained us.

Would you propose that it was wrong to outlaw slavery? Would you propose that it was wrong to invent a crime called "rape"? Because at some point, human beings decided that the fact that something has been regarded some way throughout history is insufficient to justify the continuation of that trend.

Thus, I would assert that the fact that people have generally drawn the war and peace distinction toward killing you suggest is insufficient. Additionally, your argument contains a fallacy: "If you want ot live in some fantasy world in which there is no war, go ahead."

There is a difference between not glorifying war and creating a world without war. The latter is a tremendous challenge. The former is a mere excuse. The relationship you suggest, that they are somehow polar opposites, is fallacious, and reveals your argument to be a mere distraction.

Again, while such sleights of rhetoric do not surprise me, I do wonder at how you would justify the idea that people should be obliged take your argument seriously.

Anti-abortion supporters can cover their ears and scream as much as they want, but it doesn't change the underlying reality that you're seeking to avoid. Your continued attempts to distract attention from that point—that anti-abortionists aren't about "life" and "babies", but about misogyny—only suggest that you can't come up with a genuine, proper, rational response.

Take LA's point, for instance:

It's not actually about the "baby", but about rebuking women.

There are over 100,000 children in the United States, right now, who need homes. If this was about the children, the "pro-life" crowd would be doing something about that.

Every child a wanted child. What the hell is so objectionable about that? I don't know. The "pro-life" crowd refuses to answer that question.

 

Let's put that old saw to rest. Being pregnant's not so bad. We often hear those stories of women who give birth without even knowing they were pregnant. There are certain risks, of course. And those risks explain 3% of abortions. But for the majority, abortion is not about not wanting to be pregnant.

Women get abortions because they do not want to have a baby. They're not ready, they can't afford it, it's too big a change in their life, whatever. Check the studies. And every one of those reasons applies to the man just as much as the woman. He's on the hook, at least financially, just as much as the woman. So long as she remembered to get his name, that is.

http://www.thirdway.org/data/product/file/17/demographics_of_abortion.pdf

Do you have a source for this number? I personally know a a lot of couples who have spent thousands of dollars and waited years trying to adopt a child. Why is it so difficult if there are so many in need of homes?

 

I just cut and pasted what I found on that site :shrug:

 

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Listen until you are pregnant and give birth, you shouldn't even attempt to tell a woman that being pregnant isn't so bad. :bugeye:

You walk around for 9 mnths, a good part of it in the summer heat. Find out that your baby is laying sideways in your stomache and it's feet keep kicking you in the side, giving you sharp pains you can barely stand up straight. You can't get comfortable sleeping and feel like a beached whale.
Your baby doesn't turn around at all and you have to have a C section. Then you get to have a cathetar shoved up you when you get to the hospital that hurts like fuking hell. Now the good part, you get to have a needle injected in your spine. Doctor, sorry for all the pulling and tugging, all the time you feel so sick you feel like vomitting. Finally the ordeal is over, they stitch you up and staple you together. As you lay shaking like you have hypothermia as they cover you in warm blankets, your teeth chatter and you can't get warm. You go to the recovery room where the pain is so bad you feel like you were cut in half. You try to move and it's the most excrutiating pain you have felt in your life. The nurses tell you, you must start walking. You try and the slightest movement almost brings you to tears. Finally after 3 days they remove the staples and send you on your way. You are still in agony and now feel like your insides may just spill right out. Finally you recover from this hell. Your body now has the proof of the life you just brought into this world. You are left with scars and stretch marks for life......................

Oh yeah piece of cake........no big deal :bugeye:

 

My apologies for minimizing your discomfort. But would you say the pregnancy or the years of raising the children was the greater responsibility and had a greater impact on your life?

 

'Tis my pleasure

Preliminary estimates from AFCARS suggested that as of September 30, 2005, there were 114,000 children in the United States waiting to be adopted.

Other numbers, based on data from the states as of January, 2007, indicated the following trends:

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Trends in Foster Care and Adoption, AFCARS, U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services​

For more information, these and other statistics are available through the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families.

 

you you please tell me how abortion victomizes woman?