Yes you are an absolute moron...blinded by your own arrogance and hate. Did you forget what you said in your post? How about your last umpteen posts? "...you're all as bad as each other..." How about "we're all as bad as each other"? Because you are no better. Circumstances may differ from person to person, but let me assure you that you are most definitely just as rotten to the core as everyone else. So get the fuck over yourself. "I condemn your God...I condemn you..." Condemn your damned self. You're worse than any church person I've ever witnessed, and that's saying a lot. You're an idiot because you think you know it all already. You're an idiot because you spend your time and energy pointing fingers at others when you could be looking in the mirror. You're an idiot because you allow yourself to live in fear and hate. I suppose since that is your condition, the only relief you get is to direct your bitterness towards others, hoping that they will then become as miserable as you are. The more we realize that we're in no position to judge each other, the more we're able to help each other to do the right thing. My guess is that you're no help to anyone.
you know, ironically, you seem to sound a lot like all of the things you dont like about him. maybe you should just drop it before your hypocrisy is revealed so completely that even you cant deny it.
For your information, the girl I am with hates children as much as I do, therefor we use two methods of contraception (depo and condoms), if even after that she fell pregnant, damn right we expect to have the right to abort. Sex is good, and being the intelligent creatures we are, we discovered free sex, I'm sorry if God finds that upsetting, but he made it all possible did he not? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Oh and she enjoys free sex as much as I do Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
this is for you WATER How many women enjoy having abortions? If abortion is a RIGHT, why aren't women all cheerful and glad about, massively running into abortion clinics? actually according to the national right to life website there were approximately 1,293,000 abortions performed in the US last year (2004). thats a pretty big number. i wouldnt say theyre running to abortion clinics, but not all women need to get an abortion, some use the birth control pill, some require that their partner use a condom, others employ the myriad other methods of birth control available over the counter, and still even others (to the chagrin of radical christian pharmacists everywhere) have been able to use the "morning after" pill to prevent a pregnancy. women arent running to abortion clinics because for the most part they see abortion as a last resort in the chain of ways to prevent pregnancy, not only is it a costly medical procedure that is certainly not preferrable to just taking a pill, but thanks to the religious right, having an abortion now carries the stigma of immense guilt and the possibility of being harrassed outside of planned parenthood by a crowd of holy-rolling-do-gooders who have nothing better to do than stand around with pitcures of dead babies and make a hard decision even harder for an unfortunate woman who just wants to take advantage of modern technology in a free society. in addition to this, some states (particularily in the south and midwest) have attempted to minimize the number of abortion clinics that operate in their state so that women who might get an abortion will be encouraged not to because of lack of access. so there is the answer, it is often easier to prevent a pregnancy than to abort one. taking all of that into consideration, over one an a quarter million abortions a year seems like a pretty big number doesnt it? maybe they are running to the clinics in spite of it all. True. But the thing is that sex has been socially postulated as the condition for romantic love. yeah, so what? whats wrong with that? the other option is that sex becomes disassociated with love and we start fucking each other indiscriminantly like animals in heat. which situation would you prefer. i kind of like sex when its linked to a notion of romantic love. Of course. But at what cost. at no additional cost then we currently endure and have endured for 2005 years of history at the least. what you should be pondering is at what cost do we give up our freedom to control what we do to and with our own bodies. that to me is a far darker possibility than the opposite of it. If you were a woman and have had several abortions, you'd think differently. well if i was a woman who had had several abortions i'd probably be on my way to the drugstore to get some birth control because i would surely have realized by now (although i should have realized it sooner) that i am way too fertile to be having unprotected and irresponsible sex. unless i was a prostitute, in which case im sure my mind and self esteem would have been damaged beyond repair years ago and so i wouldnt be worried about it at all. No. Well, some Christian churches may espouse such a view, esp. the totalitarian patriarchal ones. But not Christianity as a whole. what sect condones premarital sex with multiple partners even if its all done within serially monogamous relationships? maybe the unitarians. the catholics dont. im pretty sure most of the evangelical protestant sects sure dont. they pretty much make up the majority of christians in the west. The question is whether is should be regarded as "yet another regular contraceptive method". of course it shouldnt. and i dont think theres a big danger of that. its different than all other forms of contraception in that it requires the termination of a pregnancy that already exists and is being brought to term. even without the influence of religious ideology, this act will always represent a moral entanglement for some people, thats in its nature. just because its available doesnt mean its going to make it preferable. Think you were a woman, and your boyfriend would tell you "... so what if you get pregnant? You can always have an abortion. But I really want to have sex now. ... I can always go somewhere else. It's your choice." first of all, im not a woman, so lets not pretend that i know how to think like one. that being said, i have had sex with 11 women in my life, and never ever even once have i said to one of them, who cares if you get pregnant, you can always get an abortion. as a matter of fact if i think its a situation that will have a negative outcome, i choose not to have sex because i can control myself. not only that but i dont really know anyone that i think would say something like that to a woman either. maybe whats really at issue here is that a woman should know better than to have sex with a guy who is that selfish and insensitive, and if they consent anyway, its their own mess, having known what an asshole the guy is and how he is of a mindset that denegrates women and their role in sexual relationships. stupidity is not an excuse. if the woman consents to sex with a man that says that, then she is agreeing with his appraisal of the situation, if not in spirit, through her physical action. the words "i'll go have sex with someone else" arent a gun to a womans head, they are the opportunity to choose a course of action. if you make the wrong choice and blame someone else, you are just running away from the truth that you didnt have enough fortitude to stand up for yourself. Propagating abortion as a "free choice" has the side effect of women being extorted for sex. (See Kenny's example.) It also encourages irresponsible behaviour in women themselves, taking their bodies and their health very lightly. i just dont think so. people who are irresponsible are irresponsible no matter how much you want them not to be or put precautions in place so that they dont do harm to themselves. for an example see everyone who smokes cigarettes despite overwhelming evidence that they cause cancer and heart disease. see everyone who doesnt wear a seatbelt when they drive their car (even though in many places its the law), see everyone who speeds, does heroin, has unprotected sex in any african nation, skydives, and commits suicide. some people just cant cope with being given free choice to begin with. they are, for the most part, in the minority. so you would rather punish us all for the possible misguided actions of a few? no thank you.
I don't claim to be any better...that's the difference. I came out here and shared a very personal experience in an extremely honest way, and his response is to say "I condemn you". You will never in a million fucking years here me say that to anyone. Fuck condemnation...it's good for nothing. And so like I said, Snake can take his good for nothing condemnation and shove it up his ass. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
am i missing something here? did you or did you not pass judgement upon that guy's personality because of his posts on a message board? i mean that's what it looks like to me. whats amazing about it is that the whole time youre basically saying "i cant believe you would judge me like that" and then right afterward youre saying "you are a total moron and worse than what you judged me to be". so really what youre doing is telling him he's an asshole for thinking that you are one. right? right. amazzzzzzing how you rationalized that.
(Q): Incorrect. A zygote (when refering to a human zygote which we are) is a human being in its first stage of develoment, nothing at all like an amoeba or follicle of hair. Murder can only be committed betwixt humans and other humans. That is part of the definition. Yes, but just pointing out that it is impossible to determine what that person shall aspire to, be it good or ill.
How's that exactly? By paraphrasing what he just said to me, and in response telling him to f off? No, that's not condemnation, that's observation and a logical and appropriate response. The difference between conviction and condemnation is the "you're a bad person, or I'm better than you are" spin. Conviction is honest observation according to evidence and law. The Holy Spirit convicts me all the time. Maybe Snake should offer up some different evidence if he doesn't want to be called out on being holier than thou... "you're all as bad" "I condemn you..." What do you want me to say to that? Fuck you, you holier than thou p.o.s....that's what I say to that. I mean, who in the hell does he think he is? You know, he very well could have come out here and offered up something honestly and without comdemning anyone.
you know, here's another stupid point. i know how i feel about abortion because i can never have one. but a man gets a woman pregnant and so should be allowed at least some say in the decision to keep or abort a potential child. so i dont think you know what youre talking about, i know how i feel about being in a car accident before im in one, i know how i would feel about shooting an elephant before i do it. what you mean is that you dont know whether you will regret the decision or not until after youve made it. well, welcome to the real world.
Ok, then, you will never know what it's like to have your baby aborted until you do. That is what I meant by what I said, I just didn't say it very well, and if you had read on in the thread you would have surely been able to deduct that. You don't know what it feels like to be in a car accident until you're in one, and you don't know what it feels like to shoot an elephant until you shoot one. And when I say "feels like", I mean dealing with the entire experience, what leads up to it, and the consequences of it, not just some temporary physical sensation that's attribtuted to it. And I think that "it's a woman's right to choose" is bullshit. It should be both a man and a woman's right to choose. I think that what I did, by not disclosing the pregancy to the father, and having an abortion without his knowledge or input, was horribly selfish and wrong. And then to tell him about it afterwards? Good God, why? Why would I do that to him? What I did was horrible...the whole thing...just pathetic and horrifying. And I am not in denial. I don't think that I'm any better of a person than Snake is.
Kenny, Good for you. * * * charles cure, Along with it, the willingness to abort has also been postulated as the condition for romantic love. Is that fair, is that alright? Actually, this is what it often is like anyway. Whatever, as long as you are not the one harming your health with pills or abortions, right? If chasing fleeting pleasures is so important to you, then do so. I think the preferred kind of woman these days in the modern world is the one with a mind and self-esteem damaged beyond repair years ago. Ruin the woman, so she won't know what is happening to her ... You seem to be forgetting that it is people who have sex, not religious doctrines. While the doctrine may say one thing, the people who (supposedly) adhere to it, will freely do something else. From an inside Christians source, I learned that about 70 percent of all Christians have had premarital sex. In effect, they aren't any different from non-Christians. And this is where you are wrong. One of my grandmothers, she and her husband both devout Catholics, regularly had abortions. So many, she eventually got cancer which spread to her other organs. She refused operation and just wanted to die ... The Catholic church officially is against contraceptives, but on an everyday life basis, it is not. Europe is notorius for Catholic monasteries where monks and nuns regularly performed abortions. There are very polite ways to say such things. Some men also take the "gentleman's way" and postopone making up their mind to the last, and then say they will "support the woman in her choice". EXACTLY. But the choice a woman in such a situation has to make is this: "Am I willing to risk and be alone, possibly for the rest of my life? Can I hope to find someone better, or do I have to settle for this man?" Standing up for yourself means to make yourself unpopular with people, one is risking isolation. How are girls to be taught that they shoud stand up for themselves? True. The question is what is the responsibility of society, of all people. Are we to encourage a social environment where irresponsibility is allowed to thrive? What do you mean? I am not against abortion. I am against irresponsible, exploitative and otherwise harmful attitudes and actions. The truth is that as soon as people are given a freedom, they tend to abuse it. In this, negative behavioral patterns evolve, and those that were meant to be protected by that freedom, in fact fall short.
Do you know any man who wants to have any say in this? Do you know any man in a casual romantic relationship who would want to keep the child?
i would want a say in it, and as it stands right now, although im not in the situation, i know the woman that i am dating would want an abortion, and i dont think i would want her to have one. so yeah i guess i do know someone then. you assume too much.
How serious are the two of you about each other? If she kept the child -- would you then move together or even marry -- for the sake of the child?! I'm not assuming, just asking. I doubt that if a relationship is just casual, it is wise to keep the child. If the partners aren't sure whether they want a life together or not, they better not have children. And leaving such important decisions -- like living together and having children -- to the fluke of coincidence (if the contraceptives fail), is irresponsible. Or do you think it is wise to put off deciding about living together and having children until contraceptives fail?
Hate is not blind, it's open and free. I happily and openly hate the people that I hate. No blindness needed or involved. I never implied I was. You were having a pop at non-believers, and claiming them to be pro abortion. I said you're all as bad as each other, (yes I am a non-believer- although not pro abortion). I then pointed out the reverse of your argument that we're all hypocrites by showing just how you religious folk are also hypocrites, and if you're going to label non-believers as hypocrites, you might aswell point it out to yourself while you're there. Thank you, have a nice day. I'm not perfect if that's what you mean.. Am I supposed to be? Why? I like myself the way I am.. Your personal opinions are entirely inconsequential However..... Woah.. why the needless insult to these church people that aren't even here to defend themselves? Is that not the condemnation you're seemingly condemning? You obviously consider yourself as better than them, and as I am below them, you consider yourself better than me too... Why don't you get the fuck over yourself? Wtf? You're the one claiming there's some loving big space daddy and you know where you're going when you're dead and so on and so forth.. It would seem you think you know it all. I'm still in the "would like some evidence please" phase, while you didn't even need any to be able to give the "absolute truth" (tm) answer. What I do know is that you're two sandwiches short of a picnic. I get paid a lot of money to make that call. If you spent some time going through forum history you will see that I have, on occasion, happily stated that I can be rude, abrupt, cold, sometimes overly harsh and many other similar things that I have no personal issues with. As for pointing fingers.. It wasn't me, Lori - it was you. You made the statement that us non christians condemn your god while being pro abortion. You then went on to call them hypocrites. Is that not finger pointing Lori? Perhaps, as this is relevant, we should get back to the word "hypocrite"? Having made that statement, I then went on to explain that I am not pro abortion and that christians and religious people are just as hypocritical as everyone else. I put everyone in the same barrel, whereas you specifically pointed your finger at one group of people. You continually do it aswell.. Just a few sentences ago you pointed some massive finger at everyone that goes to church. I do not actually fear that much. I must admit I dread cancer, I'm not too fond of the existence of pubic lice and the possibility that there's a banjo playing werewolf in the garden sends the shits up my spine - but all in all I live pretty much without fear being present. On the other hand a christian must live with fear - so sayeth god a couple of hundred times in the bible. As for hate.. sure, none of us live with a total absence of hate. I for instance absolutely detest coffee ice cream. Hell, we could look at god himself who is also not absent of hatred. We know from god's good book that the big cheese detests poofters, detests fortune tellers, dogs and anyone who hasn't chopped the end of their penis off. He makes it totally clear too.. One such example: "You must not worship the lord your god in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the lord hates". See, even god hates - and being made in his image, it's only natural that I would hate too. As a result of that I hate coffee ice cream, TV programmes like Big Brother and religious folk. That would be quite a cool statement if you didn't fuck up then ending. I'm an extremely happy man in want of nothing. I found and have my 'rock star', I live comfortably and I have good sex daily. Aside from those, I have my daughter - and that makes me happier than anyone could ever be. I suppose the way forward is to go back to the source and find out where such bitterness has come from. In this particular thread I do believe it stemmed from your bitter comments regarding non-christians/believers and how they're hypocrites. I would say in this instance my bitterness is justified. How about yours? How about that bitterness towards non believers, and to church goers? While it's a very nice sentence, it doesn't really sound as good as it could if it hadn't have come directly after an entire post of you judging me. Lol. Ah the worthlessness of guesses. -------- Oooh, Mrs. Guess woman now asks for evidence. Quite amusing really, however - you will find I did just that. I provided evidence in support of my counter statement to your assertion that non believers are hypocrites and pro abortion. You can call me anything you want, it doesn't in any way change anything. Without your brain being at home, it would feel like rape - so no thank you. Call me once you've stopped talking to cloud fairies. I thought we'd gone past the formal introductions? Do I for some reason have less right to voice my opinions, concerns and beliefs than you do? Hopefully that should answer your question. I did offer up something honestly - in rebuttal to your assertions that non christians/believers were hypocrites and pro abortion. It seems you just chose to ignore it.
WATER Along with it, the willingness to abort has also been postulated as the condition for romantic love. Is that fair, is that alright? i disagree with that. the ability to abort isn't the only condition that allows for people to have sex freely and without fear of pregnancy. the problem here is that you are acting as though abortion would or has somehow become the sole or preferrable means of birth control, and i think thats a wrong assumption. sex isnt a condition of romantic love either, in the way that the word condition in this context is being used in the same way that the word symptom is used in relation to a disease. sex between two people (in its ideal state) is meant to be an EXPRESSION of romantic love. and in that way it is unrelated to abortion. Actually, this is what it often is like anyway. it is sometimes like that, but somewhere deep down the root of the act is still tied (if even on a subconsious level) to the idea of love. people, for example dont often go out of their way to have sex with people they hate (at least at the time of their coupling). animals have no concept of emotional attachment at all in terms of sex. theirs is sex for propagation of the species only. humanity, as far as we know, being the only species on the planet that has sex for its own pleasure, must have a rationale for the sexual act that does not result in reproductive success. that rational is love, or at least mutual like. Whatever, as long as you are not the one harming your health with pills or abortions, right? i would take a male version of the birth control pill,or use a condom, or have a vasectomy if i thought i didnt want to father any children in the future. my father and four of his friends had vasectomies at around the same time about 5 years ago. or have you conveniently forgotten that there are measures that men can and do take to prevent unwanted pregnancy as well, once again your assumptions are getting in the way of your point. If chasing fleeting pleasures is so important to you, then do so. everybody chases fleeting pleasures. it just so happens that sexual pleasure is only one of many. I think the preferred kind of woman these days in the modern world is the one with a mind and self-esteem damaged beyond repair years ago. Ruin the woman, so she won't know what is happening to her ... it is possible that you have a worse opinion of women than anyone i have ever met, you portray them as emotionally fragile, incapable of independent thought and action, and prisoners of a conspiratorial male heirarchy. while i will acknowledge that there is still a great divide between the sexes in many areas of life, i do not share your opinion that men prefer women ruined in body mind and spirit. in fact i know a few women who are far more successful than their husbands in all the ways that our society measures success, and they appreciate it more because they have worked harder for it perhaps, but they dont resent men because of it either. my grandmother, for example is a multi-millionaire president of a business consulting firm who was a full -time mother while she went to college and got her masters degree. her mother was the editor in chief of a newspaper in a small city in upstate new york during the 1920's to the 1950's. both of them, having grown up in an arguably far more oppressive time for women managed to thrive and succeed without becoming soulless husks with shattered egos and self-loathing tendencies. what makes them so different than women today? is it that they were superhuman, or did they simply have the will to succeed where others did not? maybe the reason modern women have become so useless in your version of society is because they expect that you are just born with perfect self esteem and a beautiful complicated mind and utterly deserving of an ideal life. this is not so, not for women, not for anybody. You seem to be forgetting that it is people who have sex, not religious doctrines. While the doctrine may say one thing, the people who (supposedly) adhere to it, will freely do something else. From an inside Christians source, I learned that about 70 percent of all Christians have had premarital sex. In effect, they aren't any different from non-Christians. but we were talking about christians and their outward attitudes toward sex, which often do not reflect the moral attitudes that they apply to their own life and behavior. and are you also forgetting that people who consistently violate the rules and precepts of their religion arent usually good representatives of it? i mean what good would it be for me to say, yeah i believe in jesus and god and stuff, but who cares what he said, in the end i'll just do what i want and repent on my deathbed. doenst that sort of nullify my belief in any of the actual values of the religion. it becomes a nominal allegiance only. so why even bother? And this is where you are wrong. One of my grandmothers, she and her husband both devout Catholics, regularly had abortions. So many, she eventually got cancer which spread to her other organs. She refused operation and just wanted to die ... The Catholic church officially is against contraceptives, but on an everyday life basis, it is not. Europe is notorius for Catholic monasteries where monks and nuns regularly performed abortions. i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that birth control was not as readily available to your grandmother as it is to most young women today. and in addition to that, since she was catholic, that may have precluded her from using it anyway (although it didnt seem to stop her from aborting) so she seems to have been in a situation where she got to a point (repeatedly) where she found abortion to be her only choice for whatever reason. and i dont think that abortions cause cancer. actually,today, for a woman the procedure is statistically safer than having your tonsils removed. i dont really think youre right here. There are very polite ways to say such things. Some men also take the "gentleman's way" and postopone making up their mind to the last, and then say they will "support the woman in her choice". just because you say something politely doesnt make it mean something different. maybe if its a concern for a woman she should attempt to ferret out her partners opinion on the subject before she finds herself in a situation where she needs to make an uncomfortable choice. or maybe she should just take the birth control pill and require her partner to use a condom so that she doesnt have to care what he thinks about it. the problem is when people get caught up in the moment and dont think of the consequences of their actions. thats a problem that crosses all racial, ethnic, and gender boundaries and is not restricted to sexual politics. EXACTLY. But the choice a woman in such a situation has to make is this: "Am I willing to risk and be alone, possibly for the rest of my life? Can I hope to find someone better, or do I have to settle for this man?" if you are a person who settles for something they dont want instead of gritting your teeth and working hard to get the thing you do want, then no one can help you because youre already lost. there are plenty of men in the world (literally billions) i guarantee any woman can find at least one that she deems acceptable to have a relationship with if she tries hard enough. if shes too fragile to deal with being alone during that process, how is that anyone elses fault but her own? Standing up for yourself means to make yourself unpopular with people, one is risking isolation. How are girls to be taught that they shoud stand up for themselves? in the same way that everyone else is taught to stand up for themselves. know your enemy, understand yourself. be prepared to take the unpopular road that leads to self-actualization and strong character, or back down and submit. those are the choices that are laid out for everyone in the civilized world. i dont see how women need to react to the variables any differently than men do. True. The question is what is the responsibility of society, of all people. Are we to encourage a social environment where irresponsibility is allowed to thrive? we already discourage irresponsibility as a society, through our system of laws and punishments. anyone whose irresponsible actions negatively effect other people in the innocent pursuit of their daily lives is subject to sanction under the law. there are injustices, of course, but people every day are working to correct them. a responsible society is by necessity made up of responsible people. for my part in it, all i may do is live my life according to my standards of responsibility, i cant physically force people to be more responsible, but i can try to encourage it at every turn, which for the most part our society does. you cannot however legislate standards of responsibility that are dictated to us out of a fantasy novel based on an unprovable source of ultimate authority, which is what religion attempts to do using the bible as its proof for establishing a standard of behavior. What do you mean? I am not against abortion. I am against irresponsible, exploitative and otherwise harmful attitudes and actions. i think what i mean is that you assume certain forces to be at work as motivating factors behind these irresponsible, exploitative and harmful attitudes and actions. i feel as though you have oversimplified the issue greatly. it is a complex set of attitudes, experiences, and reactions that make a person behave in the way they do, not just the solitary influence of one opinion on one issue. The truth is that as soon as people are given a freedom, they tend to abuse it. In this, negative behavioral patterns evolve, and those that were meant to be protected by that freedom, in fact fall short. theres another of your faulty assumptions at work. no one gives people freedom, people are free by their intrinsic nature. free will and control of your own actions are the outward manifestations of freedom. the ability to choose is the consequence of freedom. when people are given power over the freedom and choices of others, they abuse it. freedom is just and desireable, power corrupts. power over yourself and your actions is by its very definition freedom. power over others is a restriction of freedom. freedom does not act as a shield against the improper actions and abuses of power by others. what freedom does is allow you to choose whether or not you act to prevent the abuse or react to it when it occurs. freedom allows you to choose your actions. not to choose the actions of others.
