Yesterday i was reading the Nurnberg Diary again and i noticed this quote by one of the most distinguished pilot who ever lived. I wanted to share it with you because you can easily connect the things that he said to today's situations. Goering (in prison) to the American psychologist Gustave Gilbert : "naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in russia nor in england nor in america, nor for that matter in germany. that is understood. but, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship." Gustave : "But in democracy people choose their leaders and they have a voice. For example in America only the parliament can declare a war." Goering: "oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. that is easy. all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. it works the same way in any country." Well, i know a leader like this who is in power in 2004... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
War is good for business, business is good to republicans, republicans declare wars, it's not that hard to understand...
The Vietnam War was started by a Democrat , Kennedy. It was furtherd along by Johnson, another Democrat. Republicans, Nixon and Ford, stopped the Vietnam War.
That particular quote has featured on these forums a number of times now. And... "One of the most distinguished pilots who ever lived"? Not really.
"The First World War and Second World War were both started by Democrats." What?!? Can you be specific?
Maybe he means the involvement of the US in said wars was done during the watch of democratic presidents. . . ?
Just go back and look who were the presidents when both wars started, Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933-1945) was in office during the start of WW2, Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) was the other Democrat that was in office when the first World War started. Why is it you speak without looking things up?
Yeah, but they didn't start either war. WWI was started by an assassination of an Austrian archduke or something, wasn't it? And WWII was started when France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland. You're being US-centric, Cosmic. That's all. I get your meaning though. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Alrighty then, I can accept it that you misphrased "The First World War and Second World War were both started by Democrats." meaning to say that the First World War and Second World War both started during Democrat US Administrations. This still leaves me wondering what causative relationship you would draw from that chronology. I happen to consider both the same war, and I think that the US had little to do with the forces for change that came to an insane and unecessary head in 1914.
The Democrats were in charge during the wars, they could have refused to enter into those wars but asked congress to enter into the wars. If people keep suggesting that Republicans are always the ones starting wars I just want everyone to understand just who it was that put America at war instead of keeping America out of the wars. Democrats were the ones in charge and they were totally responsible for becomming involved, not the Republicans.
Overdose: Not to entirely contribute to threadjacking, I do think that the Goering quote has relevance to the Bush 43 Administration. It's a little bit worn-out for me personally, it still rings true. For those who haven't seriously considered the recent threat rising fascism in the USA, it's a quote well worth pondering. As is the concept of fascism, beyond merely superficial association with the German and Italian varieties of the past.
Cosmic: That's still not causation. I don't know understand what good reason Americans had for marching off to World War Part 1. In Part 2, I think that fighting fascism was a worthy cause, as it is today in our own midst. I don't think war and peace is so partisan for Americans as you would depict it, you might add that Kennedy got us mired in Vietnam. You won't get any argument from me positing that only my fellow Republicans are warlike, and that Democrats are not.
- Democrats didn't start WWI WWII, not even America started those wars. - Kennedy had a plan to get out of Vietnam (MacNara created it), but was, as we all know, killed. - Every single president has been involved with some form of armed conflict (many of which were full blown wars), so I really don't think it's fair to claim that this is partisan activity. Perhaps just a part of being in power? - BTW, this war isn't good for buisness. As a matter of fact, many in Big Buisness don't want W re-elected because their reputation overseas has turned to shit.
Also, i might add that Congress supported both WWI and WWII - in fact, WWII was only debated for 30 minutes on the floor and only one Congressman voted against it.
"WWII was only debated for 30 minutes" I think you've touched on something much more significant than party affiliation. Most politicians, in eagerness to prove themselves emminently patriotic, are prone to rubber-stamping almost any belligerent national tendency, shirking the personal risk of exhaustively and publicly assessing the risks to the country, as is their duty. This Congress deserves to be fired, for shirking their duty in guarding our nation from the Iraq occupation and the Patriot Act- All because wrapping themselves in the flag, and coddling a nascent nationalist religion was a stronger impulse than serving the people responsibly. This danger will grow, until Americans demand better of their elected representatives. -Thomas Jefferson
Then theres one of goerings other statements. ""Guns will make us powerful," he proclaimed, "butter will just make us fat."" he posed it as guns or butter. I woud generally agree. Most countries cannot afford both guns and butter. The USA can afford both right now because it is still at thte top of the economy. Maybe not in 20 years time.
You have forgotten to mention the Korean Conflict: started in a Democratic administration ended in a Republican administration much like Viet Nam. Bush has however overused the terrorist threat to push through some very Constitutionally questionable measures much like happened in the Reich's undermining of the German Constitution.
