************* M*W: I don't mean broken in the terms of a broken person like Charles Manson or Jeffrey Daumer. I don't mean broken as in a burden to society. I was meaning more of broken dreams, broken promises, broken wishes, etc.. I think we all have had some of those things. In that, we are all breakable. (If not, please let me know). But we are all deserving of a decent life. That life is what we make of it, not what any god or supernatural being denotes on us, magically touching us with privileged assets. What I'm trying to say is that if we just sit here waiting for our deity to touch us, we need to be consciously working on our lives, ourselves. That's the only way it's going to work, because there is nothing out there to help us.
you're wrong about that MW. there is empowerment in our desires, and our desires manifest with the help of something that is greater than us.
************* M*W: I just don't see it that way. There is empowerment in our desires, but those desires come from within, and are manifested from within, by our own volition. "We are never given a wish without being given the power to make it come true." ~ Erich Segal
************* M*W: It's innate. It's in our genes. It's in our molecules. Nothing gave it to us, we acquired it through natural processes, just like we've acquired the genes for heart disease and diabetes or an affinity to mathematics. If what you're getting at is that a god gave it to us, then no. We would have been able to isolate that "god" in the past say 5,000 years, but no one has done that, because that factor is just not there to be found. However, the creative mind is there, and we have an innate ability to believe in the archetypes of human gods and goddesses, but that doesn't mean they actually existed in reality. They are archetypes that we base mythological gods on. It's in our psyche to believe in these things, but that doesn't make them real.
i think that a lot of people have a distorted view of what god is...as if god is some character...personified. and i think you're right about genetics. it's how we're physically created and it determines what we are physically. but i also believe in a spiritual dimension.
Maybe not you, but how many wars are there now? How many are stemming from religious differences? How many wars are there now that all opposing nations are the same religion? How do you think Abraham and his sons started the nation? They conquered and enslaved with the blessing of God. How can you deny your god if it asked you to kill? If God is real, we have every reason to believe that God did and will again kill and ask for his followers to kill for its own purposes. There is plenty of bloodshed done by God or at the request of God in the Bible. What do you say about our God-fearing soldiers? Are you telling the ones who claim to be Christian that they are not Christian? Jesus taught patience, love, and acceptance, not non-resistance. The only reason Jesus stopped his disciples from defending him after Peter had cut the soldier's ear off was that he knew what must come to pass. You say that you agree that we shouldn't finger God, but you already have concerning this aspect. Don't worry, you aren't the first to finger God though. Do you remember what happened after Jesus's disciples admonished Mary for pouring expensive oil on Jesus? This is what I mean about pride. The disciples thought that the oil should instead have been sold and the money given to feed the poor. In their moment of pride, they presumed to know the will of Jesus. This is how a Christian, even the most devout, can cause hurt to another person, even a fellow Christian without even knowing the damage is done.
************* M*W: Although I don't believe in a creator-type deity, I believe in the oneness of humanity and the perpetual ascendance to a higher being. I still remain an atheist, because I don't believe in the existence of any god or gods. I believe that we each are responsible to ourselves and to others to see the good in each other and to help each other to rise above the immediate to a higher level of understanding. I like to use the phrase of someone being "earth-bound." That's exactly what I believe we need to free ourselves from. One must recognize one's position to achieve the break from it. A lot of people I've known have tried to insist that I was not an atheist, because of what I believe. I definitely am an atheist, but maybe not a conventional one. I think I'm a strong atheist. Anyway, I just thought I would tell you that, since you mentioned about a "spiritual dimension." There is a higher-self, and we should always strive for that.
So what?? Totally irrelevant to the question of Gods existence and His will. You made the grand statement that covered all theists and that includes me when you said we War. That was a false generalization based on a desire to see things that way and to project a lie upon me. It is no surprise to me that religions claiming to be inspired by the God of Abraham go out and do things against His will. satan cannot defeat the Word of God but he can do a fine job at creating many religions designed to lead people off the correct Way and down a path to destruction. Nation as in people? God started that. Nation as in political region of Israel. Abraham never started that it was done many generations after His death by His descendants the Hebrews. And they did so under the direction of God. They where an implement of Gods wrath. I am not asked to Kill. Rather the opposite i am asked not to kill. I am asked to rather allow myself to be killed if needed. Of course God is going to kill. Your going to die aren’t you? God declared that all sinners would die and guess what we all face the same death sentence. So God kills everyone. Apart from that God is just in carrying out His judgements and bringing revenge for those who have given revenge over to Him as He willed us too. And God is not an "it". Yep. He is the judge and He has ordered executions. So be it. He is right to do so and I agree with His right to do so. He is God. I would tell them Love is not perfected in fear and if they are still in fear then they have not come to the Love of the truth. I would tell them that they are not Christians because they are not Christians. Amen. So the solders you referred to in the last quote are not Christian by the teachings that you yourself Quote from Jesus. Yeah He corrected them, So???? And again i have not fingered God as you say. Jesus said what He said, it is clear as Day what He said. You can accept it or Reject it just like them solders have. The only people who get hurt by correction are those who are suffer from self pride. In the incident you refer too the disciples stated what they believed but where corrected by Jesus and accepted that correction. No need for them to walk around for the rest of their lives wounded. Only if they suffered from pride would they walk around wounded. And mary did what she thought was right and was praised for such. Do you think she walked around for the rest of her life wounded? No way. If anyone receives criticism then they should calmly dwell on it and decide wether it is warranted or incorrect. Then they should move on either thankful for the correction or continue with confidence in what they where doing. No need to walk around wounded. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
We're not talking about the existence of God and His will. We were discussing the dangers of religion, as I believe it was and is the number one reason to war. I said, "Maybe not you." I gave you the benefit of the doubt and I recognize that all theists do not war. I wanted to point out that the problems in the middle east, as in many other places is deep-rooted in a religious war. If you believe the Bible, it says Ishmael and Isaac's war. You don't understand, the Bible clearly states that God commanded Abraham and the sons of Abraham to go to war. War is God's will to defeat His enemies and give His people victory and the lands they were promised. I says sons, you say descendants. The point is that Hebrews did battle with God's direction. The question was hypothetical. Do you draw a line against your god in respect to killing. Will you cross that line if your god asks you to. God asks people to kill, he even asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son. We know the end of that story, but that isn't the point. The point is how far are you willing to go for your god. I sense that you have painted a picture of God and it conflicts with the scriptures. Let me get this straight, you just said, "God kills everyone." And, you are suggesting that God is male or female and not both or other (it)? Exactly, so who are you to deny its will should it choose to ask you to kill for it? The point is that morality is relative and the problem is that it Theists are dangerous when they don't understand this. They are only doing what is commanded in scripture, you would have them defy what God commands: Leviticus 25:17 Deuteronomy 4:10 Joshua 24:14 1 Samuel 12:24 1 Chronicles 16:25 Job 28:28 Psalm 33:18 Hosea 3:5 Luke 1:50 2 Corinthians 7:1 1 Peter 2:17 There are over 60 verses that say fearing God is good and a credit to those that do. I used this phrase when speaking of soldiers because many do, and many are Christian. Who are you to say who is not a Christian? You are a fool, some of what you say is from scripture, but not everything...but you still finger God in saying that you know anything at all. So??? That is my point. Even the elect, chosen by Jesus himself made a mistake and presumed to know the will of God in a moment. You are not immune to the same condition as they, so what can we take to the bank? Rubbish, you are saying the only people who are hurt are the people who allow themselves to be hurt? Exactly who corrects you? The same source as to what you felt was right at the time? Makes sense, but I'm not talking about criticism, I'm talking about a quick tongue that some Christians have because they have fingered God or spirituality, like you do. Oh wait, they aren't Christians by your standards. Whatever dude, your recent words does plenty of harm to the good God fearing Christians. I'm sorry, they just appear to be good Christians to me by the Biblical standards. I'll check with you next time before I call anyone a Christian who claims to be one.
I don't think so. It may be a tool used to motivate people to go to war but it is not the main reason. Lust for power and control is the main reason for war. Your original post made no such statement. Only after i challenged it did you offer these. Yeah religions and those who lead them do motivate people to go to war. But i don't give a rats ass about them. I do not speak for them and i have no brotherhood or fellowship with them. I speak for the Love of the truth as revealed by the Messiah Jesus. I do not like being pigeon holed in with them by people like you making false statements. No. God used them as tools of His wrath against peoples who had sinned greatly against God. He did not order them to destroy people just to give them land. Dueteronomy 9 4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you. Yeah they did. And Jesus gave orders not to battle and those orders stand unto this day. And anyone who disobeys those orders and says that Jesus did not give then that order is no follower of the Messiah Jesus. No matter how devout and religious they seem to the outside world. Once again God does not Order me to kill. He orders me Not to kill. The Bible is a revelation in it's entirety and it must be taken on board in it's entirety. Then why did you bring that incident up??? It conflicts with what you wish to believe is what scriptures teach because you want to be justified in rejecting the Word of God. Your a smorgasbord atheists picking and choosing scriptures and disregarding the message in it's entirety. God has allowed every human being to die since adam and eve gained the knowledge of good and evil Right.. Don't put words in my mouth. I said God is not an "it" which means He is not some unthinking force. He is an intellect. He does not ask me to kill for Him as i have said again and again. No morality is established by the Will of God. There is right and there is wrong. And you stop there, don't you, and do not move along with the over all message of scripture. 1 John 4 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. So fear is the beginning of wisdom but it is not the ending where scriptures are concerned. those who are still in fear have not accepted the entire Love of the Truth that is the message of God. They where chosen but at the time they did not have the Holy Spirit did they. That came after the Messiah's Ascension on the day of Pentecost and then their eyes where opened. I said being hurt in relation to being corrected. Do not expand it to cover everything. False accusation against me. They appear so To You.... And you are doing your best to deny what a True Christian is just as they do their best to deny what a true Christian is. Accept what i say or reject what i say, but your sarcasm only reveals yourself. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Oh yes, I reject what I am understanding that you are saying as what is in the Bible. I would reject your words before the book's as truth. I think we have a communication issue here, we're going nowhere fast. I said You said I think you may have misunderstood me which took us down a rabbit hole of what does the Bible say about fear, which just complicates the simple point I'd like to discuss. When I said, "God-fearing" I did not mean that those soldiers actually fear God in the preset tense. They may have in the begging, just like you pointed out the possible development of a Christian's quality of faith. I said the phrase to attach an adjective to them to convey the meaning that they understood what it was to be a true Christian. It was to their credit, just like the Bible says it is. Granted, it may not be the end of their relationship with God, just like you pointed out in John. What I meant was that there are good folks among soldiers, and what right do you or I have to say who is or who is not a "True Christian." To say otherwise would be to say we have read the Book of Life, that belongs to Jesus. So, what did you mean when you called them not a Christian, was it because I called them "God-fearing"? Even if they still did fear God, have you read the Book of Life spoken of in the Bible. The one that contains the names of those who will be saved when the seal is broken in the end. By your Holy Bible, I don't believe it is your business to say they are not Christians. Would you call them out and not leave that for Jesus to blot out of the Book of Life? Also, can you just answer this question with a "yes" or "no". I've asked it several times, and you never answer it. Would you kill if you God demanded you to? I realize that he hasn't and doesn't, but I'd like to know how much you trust in your own morals as ethical and how much you trust in God's. I've provided examples of that God does sometimes call for killing, so you cannot say that it will never ask again.
Firstly There are no "good folks" in the world. I believe Jesus when He said only God is Good. I guess you do not believe Jesus so be it. Secondly. It is my duty before God to expose those who declare themselves Christians but deliver a message that is in rebellion against Jesus as False Christians no matter what. These people who take up arms and fight in war and claim to be Christians are just such people. I must first bring warning to them to repent of their rebellion and i must make it clear in the mind of 3rd parties (non-Christians and athiests) the difference between me and them. I must allow the third party to see that they are not me and i am not them. I wish third parties to look and see two different and distant faiths/religions. As for the Book of life: I do not know who's names are written in the book of life. And it could be that many false Christians alive today are written into the book of life because i believe that while there is life there is hope and there is hope for any false Christian who hears the teachings of Jesus and can be humble enough to trust in the teachings of Jesus and forsake warfare and repent of their rebellion before their deaths. The fear of God is the state of mind that worldly or unfinished religions establish their bondage/control over their adherents. The exploitation of the fear of God has and is used to motivate much evil. Therefore if these solders have the fear of God then it is likely that they are under the influence and control of a false religion. It is my duty and strong conviction that i must call them out and make a clear borderline between them and me in the minds of third parties. Not to condemn them but to give serious warning to them in the hope that they will come to accept the true Messiah Jesus and be saved. Also that third parties may come to discover the true teachings of Jesus rather than have their views on what Christianity is built on the actions and teachings of these men who pursue warfare. And lets face it peoples perception is usually based on what they see more of. There are a lot more false Christians than true Christian in this world. Yes i would. The Prophecy of the Bible clearly shows that from the time of Jesus on earth to the time of the day of Judgement and entry into eternal life no such demand on followers of the Messiah Jesus to kill will be made. The book of Revelation reveals that God Himself wall carry out the wrath that will come in the end days upon the earth. God will carry out revenge upon those who have and will persecute and kill true Christians. So i believe what prophecy reveals so i am confident that i will never be called upon to kill anyone. God does not need me to kill anyone. He is more than capable of ending all life on earth in a twinkling of an eye if He willed so. All Praise The Ancient Of Days PS: i note you added the words morals and ethics into the equation. God is the Creator and is perfect and he is justified in ending or preserving the life of anyone as He deems fit. Ending a life in itself is therefore not a moral or ethical issue. Unjustified ending of life is a moral issue. Ending life in itself is not.
A bold statement by itself. But, i'm curious where it says in the Bible that only God is Good. A few questions: 1. Do you ever question your duty out of humility? All of the holy men and women in the Bible all questioned "Why me?" 2. Do you also question your duty to "expose those who declare themselves Christians but deliver a message that is in rebellion against Jesus" 3. Do you ever doubt that what you perceive as rebellion is not really, before you carry out your duty? 4. It seems very bold to presume that you know exactly what is rebellious, how is it not a prideful attitude? It seems like you should be consulting God at every situation that requires judgement, so do you?
Ups and downs Perhaps it seems strange advice, MZ3, but I would suggest a careful reading of the Book of Job. And then compare it to what the faithful tell you about the story. The two outcomes are, for the most part, as different as they can be. As to Neale's dialogue, it's an interesting proposition with pros and cons. To the downside, it presumes certain fundamental notions about God. To the positive, though, it presents God in a more reasonable and useful light than traditional faith. Perhaps most interesting is the last part of your transcription; some would suggest that as we navigate our path deeper into alleged enlightenment, we reject the old in favor of the new. There is, of course, a complication that arises in human imperfection; often we throw out what is valuable and old because it is so inextricably knotted up with a given presentation. Part of the problem is that we allow the terms of discussion to be set inappropriately. That is, we often argue outcomes when we should argue advents and foundations. Furthermore, we educate our people according to that possible mistake. Thus, to attend an issue not quite at random: Abortion, war, death penalty, and the sanctity of life. Setting aside for the moment the seeming contradiction of opposing abortion while supporting war and capital punishment, there is an underlying notion that new ideas corrode the sanctity of life. And, to be certain, some do. Is this corrosion inherent to the idea? Not necessarily; it can also be part of the application and presentation. Theologically and philosophically speaking, I would suggest that the problem is a matter of our expectation. God is not so apparent in our lives as the Bible, for instance, suggests it should be. Abramism: Is Christ a deviation, or the final word? Is Muhammad a usurper and false prophet, or the final word? Is Joseph Smith a confidence swindler, or the final word? While touring Westminster Abbey last week, I witnessed a brilliant example of English faith. A woman of unknown rank came to a lectern and spoke over the public address. It was time for prayer. Everyone stopped milling around and listened respectfully. She prayed for the English football team at the World Cup, and for the other teams as well. She prayed for South Africa. She prayed for the fans. And she also prayed for tolerance and understanding toward those who thought the World Cup of football just wasn't all that important, and that God might thus reveal Himself to their hearts. The two cynical atheists I was with could only smile. It was the best prayer they ever heard. But was she a false prophet? A disingenuous shepherd? Or is this what God has genuinely become to people? Is it by His design that this should be the state of things? Which brings me to another downside of Neale's dialogue, and perhaps it is addressed elsewhere in his book: Nothing is ever God's fault. The one entity in all the sentient Universe who is not responsible for the outcomes of its actions and choices is God. (And here we come back to the Book of Job, but that can wait.) This lack of accountability is a problem. Accepting that God is an invention of humanity to stand as an anthropomorphic characterization of perfection, we must recognize that God, as we witness Him, is thus imperfect. None of which means I have any guaranteed remedy. The best I can offer is that people need to stop looking to God as such an interactive being. God simply is. That is, if I quote John Lennon out of context and say, "God is a concept", all there is to it. It is an idea by which we express our recognition of totality and perfection, which occur at such a level that we simply cannot comprehend.
Matthew 19 17 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” I have. But from reading scriptures i came to the understanding that God does not have a track record of selecting what the world would consider religious/rightious men as His messangers. Moses was a murderer who ran away from his people and would have been happy to live his life out in the wilderness as a jethro's sheep herder and Jonah, well even after being called he tried to run away fro God. Samuel was called as a little child. David, well we all know about his adultery and murder don't we. I guess the only prophet that would seem to conform to the religious tag would have been Daniel. So from scriptures we should not even have to ask with humility "why me God" Because God does not seem to select His messengers on merit. God seems to use people who are in the right place at the right time for His purpose. Never question that one. If i have any love for them i will reveal to them the false foundations of their religions so as to convict them to seek God anew. Also if i have love for the third parties who i wish to have the opportunity to consider the Love of the truth i must both reveal to them the love of the truth and the lies of false religions. I don;t do this because i want to win an argument. I know from scriptures that there are some who will never accept the love of the truth. I follow what i am convicted to do. If they "the rebellious" wish to put forward their defence of their doctrines. let them do it. If they wish to remain in their rebellion so be it. But as a watchman i am called to bring warning. People have ownership of their reactions to the message. Not when i have been given understanding beyond my "natural" abilities by God. All glory and honour is to God, not me. As i have explained before. Now it is up to the ones considering my message to decide wether what i say is truth or lies. So salvation is not by a person’s merit but by His Righteousness So being selected as a messenger is not by a person’s merit but by His Righteousness I have spent a lot of time asking God question. Most of the time i spend talking to God consists of questions. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You have a lot of trust in your own perception to believe this. I do not trust my own perceptions. I don't know if what you say is truth or lies, but I don't trust you and I don't trust myself enough to know that I shouldn't trust you. I won't be deceived anymore by myself as I did in the past. People like you who do trust their own senses are a problem for me because I can't trust them because they are like what I was...convicted/convinced that the truth was truly perceived. So, when you say things with such conviction a red flag goes up because I was there before when I first started this journey on sciforums in 2005. You are not so different than I was, but of course you will deny it and that is your choice to make.
