9/11 Poll

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by scott3x, Feb 7, 2009.

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Who was responsible for 9/11?

  1. 1- The official story regarding 9/11 is the sacred truth. Questioning it is blasphemous.

    2.2%
  2. 2- The official story regarding 9/11 is more or less right. No need to investigate further.

    43.3%
  3. 3- The official story regarding 9/11 is questionable in some areas.

    20.0%
  4. 4- EoG (Elements of the Government) let 9/11 happen.

    2.2%
  5. 5- EoG let 9/11 happen. EoG prevented the investigation of certain individuals before 9/11.

    6.7%
  6. 6- EoG, perhaps in the form of a secret society, made 9/11 happen.

    17.8%
  7. 7- Other

    7.8%
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  1. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    He stated what is normally done. Then he stated that they were unable to do 'that' in the case of WTC 7; clearly, he was referring to the things he'd just mentioned. It's best to hear the video clip, I think it can help to hear the way you can hear his dissapointment and not being able to do a proper investigation. The reasons given for destroying all the steel were quite lame; I can't remember them right now though.
     
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  3. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    yes, he stated what normally would be done then states he wasn't able to do that.
    this in no way means WTC 7 wasn't investigated.
    it's a shame he didn't state what he did or didn't do in regards to 7.
    by the way, the video cuts immediately after his statement and implies he DID state what was done but the makers of the video didn't want that part known.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
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  5. psikeyhackr Live Long and Suffer Valued Senior Member

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    .
    Care to provide us with a link to a controlled demolition where someone claimed the cloud of dust was pyroclastic?

    .
    Where has there been a controlled demolition where dust was 3 inches thick for blocks around the site?

    psik
     
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  7. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Once again, when actually challenged to explain one of your assertions (that the mundane explanations ‘don’t hold water’), you make excuses about insults because you can’t respond.

    No I am asking you to explain why you said something!

    Just explain why you think so. Don’t pretend that it is hard.

    People have refuted your evidence and you have run away from their refutations.

    Regarding what? You are asking vague time wasting questions to try and divert away from you inability to back up anything you say.

    That is ridiculous.


    What do you mean by explored?

    As usual you ignore the majority of my post to claim that I missed one question in yours.

    Record rates? That is the kind of puerile exaggeration that headspin accuses me of.

    What do you think they should have done?

    What evidence?!
    The experts who had the steel, analysed it and wrote peer reviewed papers (actual peer review) on it disagree with you. Basically there are more likely explanations than the thermate one. You don’t want to see this.

    You have not presented any evidence to actually support your fu^%$ng claim. You claim thermate is responsible yet you produce no evidence for this. You can’t refute that there are likely mundane possibilities so you dodge and make excuses. You make the claim that there was a cover up but produce no evidence. Your source of information is the work of Barnett and his team who actually conclude that sulfur was responsible! Then you challenge me to produce evidence to counter your claims! Read the work of Barnett and his team!
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  8. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Which has possible explanations not involving magic thermite.

    He did not find evaporated steel. With that comment he was referring to the steel which had experienced some erosion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    And I'll say it again.

    Sulfidation doesn't neccessarily mean anyththing.
    Steel needs to be specifically treated to resist being attacked by hydrogen sulfide for precisely this reason.

    Besides which, there's no proof that the corroded steel neccessarily had anything to do with the collapse of WTC7, it could just have easily been the result of an unforseen long term process.

    Correlation does not imply causation, and this is precisely what you're trying to argue - that the fact that it is present some how implies it had something to do with the events of the collapse.
     
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    You're right.

    It's reached the point where I'm seriously considering limiting my involvement in this thread, which would be your loss, not mine.
     
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    I've addressed this point three times now I think.
     
  12. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Same claim(s) I have addressed, repeatedly.

    First off, it's only a thermitic if you assume aluminium is present in its metallic form, the evidence available indicates that it isn't metallic alumnium.

    I have provided independent evidence that the spectrum provided by Harrit is consistent with Aluminium Oxide, not Aluminium.
    Nothing you have said has disproven that.

    And yes, I believe Harrit was mistaken about this, among other things.
    I've already explained how his comments regarding the lack of reaction with the MEK are wrong, and his comments regarding the DSC analysis are wrong.
    I believe this is simply something else he got wrong.
    I've also explained how it being paint could explain the Iron spherule.

    Once again, if you want to prove your point, it's simple, produce one single XEDS refference spectrum for Metallic aluminium that looks like the spectrum that arrit obtained.
     
  13. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    I'm not the one claiming it can cut steel. Especially when by Harrit/Jones' own calculations it released very little energy when heated. But then, I'm talking about paint here, not nanothermite.

    It's 2009 and we have still not seen it in action. Which allows nutjobs like yourself to say what you will about it.

    LOL!

    Tony... I always found you at least somewhat sensible as far as conspiracy nuts go... but that is just fucking insane, LOL!

    Well first you will have to tell me what you think pyroclastic means when talking about the dust. For me, it looks no different to the dustclouds you would see in any demolition/building collapse except there was more of it since the buildings were larger.

    If you weren't so dense, you would realize that most demolitions typically involve small buildings. The amount of dust generated by those buildings can't compare to that of 267 floors in pretty much the same location. That's why there was a lot of dust.

    Regardless of whether they were demolitished or collapsed due to fire, there would be more or less the same amount of dust.

    Why don't truthers understand this?
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    You mean the same dust that according to Truthers contained pulverized concrete?

    It was basic? Really? Wow, who would have seen that one coming.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_cement#Safety
    "When cement is mixed with water a highly alkaline solution (pH ~13) is produced by the dissolution of calcium, sodium and potassium hydroxides."

    Zinc in the form of Zinc Oxides, which react with Linseed Oil, which formed the base of the paint, to form Zinc Soaps, which are soluble in MEK.
    Your point is what precisely?

    Right, Harrit soaked an unspecified mass of an unspecified paint, that may or may not have been dried in an unspecified manner, in an unspecified amount of MEK, and then comments on the difference of behaviour.

    Am I the only person that sees the problem there?

    The ratio of Al

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    peak heights are the same as in an XEDS aluminium oxide reference spectrum. QED.

    Right, consistent with the Ferric Oxide that was used as a pigment in the paint.

    Didn't say they did, Harrit however says that the chip contains silica rich areas that were able to be seperated from the ALuminium rich plates, consistent with the decomposition by dehydration of Kaolinite.

    Not a claim I have made, I have however siad that MEK oxidizes Aluminium, which is why the lack of a reaction between the MEK and the red chips tells us there was no metallic aluminium in the,.

    Didn't claim it did.
    Look up what 'reducing agent' means (here's a clue, they get oxidized).

    Easily.
    Kaolinite (note the spelling) contains a high proportion of water, and is formed of (essentially) paralell layers of alumina and silica. The application of heat causes the kaolinite to dehydrate, and seperate into plates of Alumina and Silica, which can then be seperated by the MEK.

    This contradicts nothing I have said. Once the Kaolinite has dehydrated, and seperated, the Alumina and Silica are no longer chemically bound.

    Wrong.
    Well, technically correct, Aluminium does have a much higher BP than MP, however, that's not why it gets used in Aluminoferric thermite.

    It get's used in thermite because it's a strong reducing agent, it likes to give away it's electrons to things. It's reactive, and makes a good fuel.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    But hang on, isn't one of the truther claims that the buildings imploded and collapsed into their own footprint?

    And there were no 'virtually' pyroclastic clouds.
     
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Being available in a lab doesn't automatically mean it's available in multi ton quantities that truthers have claimed must have been present.
     
  17. Tony Szamboti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    Leopold, I believe I have told you before that there was no basement in WTC 7 other than a couple of small areas for fuel tanks.

    I think I also provided a link showing how the foundation was constructed. It was quite extensive and went down to bedrock. The building was not sitting on a slab on top of gravel.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  18. Tony Szamboti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    How would you have any idea how much could have been made available to powerful people?

    It would not have been like building a nuclear weapon for the first time.
     
  19. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    I really couldn't care less if something called nanothermite existed prior to 9/11. It proves nothing. There was no nanothermite found at ground zero. What Harrit and Jones found was paint which is why it burned at 1/20th that the energy of paper.

    You have no evidence of it being used in large quantities or even used outiside of a science lab. You have no evidence that it can be manufactured by the ton or that it can cut steel.
     
  20. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Yes, and pay special attention to the size of the aluminium particles used in the mixture. :\
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Where has there been a 220 story controlled demolition with all of its Gypsum drywalls still intact?
     
  22. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Because as a chemist I have an understanding of the difficulties involved in scaling a process that produces a few grams of material, up to a process that produces a few tones of material.

    If each lab batch produces 100g (overly generous for most lab processes) of material, then 1 (metric) ton equates to 10,000 batches (bear in mind, that I'm fairly sure some truthers have maintained that 10 or more tons must have been used).

    I got the impression from the papers that have been linked to, that producing a batch would take several minutes to produce a single batch. At this rate, it would take one laboratory nearly 50 years to produce each ton of material produced.

    Do you understand the problem yet?
     
  23. Tony Szamboti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    Sure you did eight years ago on Sept. 11, 2001. Besides how would you know where it has or hasn't been used?

    I would bet that you have no idea that a dart weapon was developed at Ft. Detrick to deliver a dissolving paralyzing dart for several reasons. One was for guard dogs. There were three different delivery methods: a large pen, a pistol, and an umbrella. Do you even know there was a guy with an open umbrella to the right front of John Kennedy as his limousine passed by? Kennedy had a 5cm wound in his throat and the darts were 3/16" diameter. There is no way the small diameter throat wound is an exit wound from the back and it is unlikely to be a bullet wound from the front at that size. The umbrella man is caught on video and photos of Dealey plaza during and after the assassination. Think about a guy with an open umbrella on a sunny day.

    I have learned not to call things insane that I know nothing about until I checked on it myself.
     
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