0.999... = 1

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Andrej64, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

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    1,924
    a bit off topic but i heard that if you divide 0 infinite times it becomes 1.
     
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  3. Naat Scientia potestas est. Registered Senior Member

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    A weird urban legend!
     
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  5. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    Where the hell did you hear this? Maybe someone misinterpreted the definition of a derivative perhaps, or the limit.

    Zero is the identity element of addition. a + b = a, so we call b zero.. nothing.. nada.

    But are you saying 0/infinity = 1 or x/0^infinity = 0?

    Maybe... Limit(x->0) x/(1/x) which would look like 0/oo but it is this: Limit(x->0) x^2 = 0, not one.
     
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  7. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    1 = sqrt(1) = sqrt(-1*-1) = sqrt(-1)*sqrt(-1) = i*i = i² = -1

    ==> 1 = -1
     
  8. funkstar ratsknuf Valued Senior Member

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    1,390
    Nice semi-proofs, przyk.

    Of course, in the first one, fg'' does not equal 4(x^9)e^(x^2), so you're not actually comparing two terms of f'g'. fg''= 2(x^7)e(x^2) + 4(x^9)e(x^2), which acounts for the difference between the (f'g')s

    The second one is even more simple. Still, they're quite cute, though, and I hadn't seen the first one. I'll have to try out the first one on a couple of friends...
     
  9. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    .999999^1000000= .367879 and change.
     
  10. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    3,203
    A more suble one:

    Let u = 1 + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>3</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>5</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>7</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>9</sub> ... and v = <sup>1</sup>/<sub>2</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>4</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>6</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>8</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>10</sub> ...

    Now, 2v = 1 + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>2</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>3</sub> + <sup>1</sup>/<sub>4</sub> ... = u + v, therefore u = v or u - v = 0

    If we calculate u - v term by term, we get: (1 - <sup>1</sup>/<sub>2</sub>) + (<sup>1</sup>/<sub>3</sub> - <sup>1</sup>/<sub>4</sub>) + (<sup>1</sup>/<sub>5</sub> - <sup>1</sup>/<sub>6</sub>) ...

    Since all the terms in this summation are greater than zero (1 > <sup>1</sup>/<sub>2</sub>, <sup>1</sup>/<sub>3</sub> > <sup>1</sup>/<sub>4</sub>, and so on) we can safely conclude that u - v > 0.

    Substituting u - v gets us 0 > 0.

    The inescapable conclusion is that zero is strictly greater than itself (ie. equality is excluded).
     
  11. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    Yea, strange things seem to happen with infinite series. It's like.. in your "proof" you assume that (1 + 1/3 + 1/5 + 1/7 + ....) + (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/6 + ...) makes sense if you move the terms in v an infinite number of "places" to the left so we can group them such that u+v = 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + ...

    Silly Billy
     
  12. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    3,203
    And a dumb one (this one's my own idea):

    It's quite well known that, when multiplying odd and even numbers:
    even * even = even
    even * odd = even
    odd * even = even
    odd * odd = odd

    Let p and (1-p) be the proportion of odd and even numbers in the set of integers. The above table yields:
    Proportion of even numbers: (1-p)<sup>2</sup> + 2p(1-p)
    Proportion of odd numbers: p<sup>2</sup>

    The simultaneous equations p = p<sup>2</sup> and (1-p) = (1-p)<sup>2</sup> + 2p(1-p) allow only two solutions, namely:

    p = 0 or p = 1.

    This debunks the myth that there are as many even as odd integers.
     
  13. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    3,203
    What? I can put them where I want. Addition is commutative, remember?

    In fact, I'm pretty sure that the sum of two series is defined as the series of the sums of the corresponding terms.
     
  14. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,832
    10x - x = 9x

    Multiply 9 by x. The result is < 9
     
  15. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    9,686
    This old concept again.

    I'm no math whiz. But from reading through these threads in the past, it's pretty much a no-brainer.

    0.9999.... is 1.
    It's in the very definition.

    The decimal 0.999.... is the real number that is the limit of the sequence beginning 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ...

    That real number is 1.
     
  16. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,989
    I remember seeing an example somewhere where it doesn't work... it's in a book I own. If I find it, I will let you know.

    But a different mistake is how you arrived at u-v = 0.. which isn't true.
     
  17. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    3,203
    Why? You take u + v = 2v, and subtract 2v from both sides.
     
  18. Physics Monkey Snow Monkey and Physicist Registered Senior Member

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    869
    No doubt what Absane is recalling is the fact that one can only perform an infinite rearrangement of the terms of an infinite series if the series is absolutely convergent. A famous example of the dangers of rearrangement is the alternating harmonic series &Sigma; (-1)^n 1/n . The series converges, but it doesn't converge absolutely. It isn't hard to prove that you can make the series sum to anything you want by rearranging terms!

    Notice that przyk's two series don't converge at all!

    P.S. My favorite infinite series: &Sigma; n = -1/12. Figure that out!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2006
  19. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,502
    1.000000 ^ 1000000=1
    .999999^1000000=.367879

    1/(.999999^1000000) or 1.0000001^1000000=2.71828 and change.

    2.71828=e, the base of the natural logarithms.
     
  20. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,989
    Lol. Thank you sir.. it's what I was trying to get two but it's been 3 years since I took Calc 2. Sure, the book is within reach but I would rather just pretend I know

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  21. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    u and v do not converge, and when you do u-v, you are really saying Infinity - Infinity = 0.. which isn't true. However, I guess that is the same reasoning all along. Dang.
     
  22. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    8,989
    Let me make something up

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    1/12*{Floor[cos(pi*1] + Floor[cos(pi*1/2]+Floor[cos(pi*1/3)] + ...}
     
  23. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    3,203
    The fact that u and v do not converge in itself isn't the problem; it just means that you have to be careful by what you mean when you compare non convergent series.

    Hint: If you define addition and subtraction of two series like this:

    &sum;<sub>i</sub> a<sub>i</sub> + &sum;<sub>i</sub> b<sub>i</sub> = &sum;<sub>i</sub> (a<sub>i</sub> + b<sub>i</sub>) and &sum;<sub>i</sub> a<sub>i</sub> - &sum;<sub>i</sub> b<sub>i</sub> = &sum;<sub>i</sub> (a<sub>i</sub> - b<sub>i</sub>),

    what's the corresponding definition of equality between two infinite series going to be?
     

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