the voice of god When a man speaks to God that is called prayer. When God speaks to a man that is usually known as a delusion. Usually but not always. For some reason many people are prepared to accept that there are exceptional people who God talks to directly. When God does choose to speak through a man for some strange reason he contradicts himself. For a supreme being with omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence and a beneficent character this is very strange behaviour. I cannot help thinking that if God wanted to save the world by sending down his only son he rather cocked up his strategy. Why did he send Jesus when he did? That is, after thousands of generations of men had died without the chance to be saved and yet before mass communications had been fully developed. It seems rather a mystery. If leaving millions of men's souls unsaved is not a problem why didn't he wait until say, 1970/2000, to send his son, then the whole world would be in a position to hear his words today on the world-wide media that an omniscient God must have predicted? God must have written off the souls of millions of people before deciding to send in his boy. That strikes me as rather dumb for an omniscient God. "Prophets hear the voice of God and talk with him. God reveals himself to prophets and they do his work. Lunatics hear voices in their heads. The difference is only good public relations." OK, let us grant that God cocked up the timing but he got the rest right, didn't he? No. He talks to his prophets such as Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Mormons, Moonies and the rest and gives them conflicting messages. Or perhaps he only speaks to some of them and the others are evil manipulators. It strikes me as terrible strategy. If mere mortals are going around pretending to spread your holy word why don't you turn them into pillars of salt or smite them with a thunderbolt? If you want your message delivered by men and to be understood by men why not tell several men the same message, at the same time, across the whole world? That would convince me, if the same story about the will of God emerged from four or five cultures at once, met up, got translated and were found to agree. That would have in church like a shot. But God has missed his chance. If such a thing happened today everyone would think it was a conspiracy. Naturally the believer answers this scepticism by chastising me for even daring to consider the motives of God. I cannot help it, I have been educated to question everything, I make no apologies for extending that questioning, even into the mind of God. Or more accurately into the mind of a hypothetical God. My beliefs in the supernatural are quite clear. The supernatural is an oxymoron. There is the natural world, natural laws operate, these are knowable but not yet fully known. The extent of our ignorance of natural laws is impossible to measure. Two hundred years ago scientists would probably estimate that they understood half of what was knowable, I guess today's scientists might guess the same, in another two hundred years they still might guess the same. The more science learns the more the extent of the unknown. But there is nothing that is unknowable. That is my faith, or more respectably, that is my working hypothesis. God is an invention of man, a social construct. All human societies have some form of religion, from simple animism and ancestor worship through polytheism, monotheism and deism. From the earliest periods of history there have also been a growing minority of atheists. Many atheists have seen through religions and found them hollow. Others have seen how they operate and propagate themselves and have come to reject them because they can see why they exist. I reject religion on both grounds. I know there is no God. I know why we invented him. I understand what other people are perceiving when they say they feel the presence of God, it is a common illusion. My brain knows that my vision has a hole in the middle of it, where the optic nerve leaves the eye from the wrong side, there is a gap in my perception, I can prove it to myself logically with "magic tricks" but my brain also "knows" that my vision is perfect. One form of knowledge is learned, one is instinctive and not open to logic. The religious believer knows there is a God in the non logical way I know my vision is perfect. Both are wrong. There is a hole in my vision because my distant ancestors in the Cambrian era evolved a pit of light sensitive cells with the nerve fibres in front of the light sensitive parts. Any sensible God or digital camera designer would have started again, putting the light sensitive parts of the cell next to the clear liquid filled reservoir and put the wiring round the back. But all fish, reptiles, birds and mammals have to put up with this design fault, wiring on the inside of the eye, and a great big bunch of unseeing nerve fibres right in the middle where the eye really wants to focus. This is a fact that many teachers will gloss over, they will tell you that there is a "blind-spot" in the middle of your vision, they will show you how to demonstrate it to yourself, they will not point out the implications. The implications are that it is not possible to come up with any argument from design to explain this fact. Only evolution explains it. Once a simple eye had emerged wired up in this way it was not possible to invert it without making it work less well in the short term. Evolution cannot go backwards, even half a step, just as a river only ever flows downhill even if it meanders for miles. Evolution can only make our eyes better by making subtle changes, turning our eyes inside out, to be the right way round, was only an option for a brief period of time in chordate evolution. No such mutation happened at this time. It is now too late. It may be of some comfort to know that squid and octopuses have eyes that are very similar to ours but with the nerves where they belong, behind the photoreceptors. They were evolved completely separately, we have no common ancestor with eyes. This is to my mind one piece of evidence for the non existence of God that will outweigh every weeping statue, every vision of the virgin and every tomato with the message "there is no God but Allah" in its pips. It is proof every animal was not created from scratch, made perfectly by an all wise God, it is very strong evidence for evolution. Evolution cannot start again from a blank design, evolution turned a second rate basic design into the beautifully functioning eyes we chordates use today. with thanks AU
Since reason would not subdue you, i would tell you a lie, a lie of such enormous proportions that it's only rival would be the biblical account of creation. I would appeal to your sense of wonder
The "blind spot" in the middle of your vision, may be from the fact your spend most of your time using that part of the retina screen. That part that is used the most becomes faded, and less sensitive to faint images. That is why you can see better out of the "corner of your eye". There are blood vessels that feed the retina screen in the eye and the image coming through the lens in reversed and projected onto this "screen". The brain interprets the image and reverses the image back. If you had ever met God, who is a real person, you would not believe He was an invention. He had hidden himself for a reason, there are so many men that want to speak for Him and make a reproach on His name. If He ever ordained someone to speak for Him by contacting that person, it is such a scary, fearful experiance to be in the presense of the all-powerfull, all knowing God that the person usually trys to get out of the responciblity, and runs from it. These guys that are in a hurry to say they speak for God.... don't. God usually has to chase His man down first......look at the scriptures.
if you gonna argue against'God' then you have to know your mythology, and undwerstand how the patriarchy usupred pre-patriarchal insights and understanding the religions your mainly refering to are the 'revealed religions'. reveled religions are patriarchal. we have t usually male prophet who is suppsed to be in touch with an invisible entity who sets down laws of how to live etc.....who can question such authority!!! but then you fall into te same trp i see agin and agin. you then seem to worship scientific materialism hich staes we are 'wired' in such a awy/ you assume you have a blindspot.......maybe this is so but its not thepoint tepoint is is that what we fail to notice many of us is the indoctrinating nature of ATHIESTIC culture, which is materialistic. i., you rave against religious authority--which i agree with. but seem to hold back or not be ware of the utterly dulling efect of a culture which, haven seen thru religious dogma yet still is unaware of its OWN dogma materialism is this dogma and it takes the meaning out of peples lives what do i mean by meaning? we are not just conscious beings. w also have unconscious depths, whcihc include needs. but we are supposed to deny all that and be good little logical machines wid our noses up mscience's arse what are these needs? they are deep needs to express our nonrational sides. ecstasy is nonrational. or could be called CHAOS. tis is where one is lost in wonder, and the meaning IStat wonder. not gaining 'facts/knowledge' as in logical actions, pracical attitudes. tink of it as deep play not only our culture frowns on tis need. but So did/does patriarchal religion. remember tey are very authoritative and any activity beliefe etc not sanctioned by the Church/Mosque/Temple is sonsidered against'God' and 'demonic' our materialistic culture doesn't use those archaic terms, it uses things tat put-down such needs. shame the people who want that or actually mainfest behaviour along tose lines, and people can also be classed as 'mentally ill'-----even your biblicl prophet would be so classed, yeah?? so. w have to look at BOTH ideologies. both rligious fundamentalism AND scientific fundamentalism, and see through their autority which oppresses freedom of expression and ecstasy
The truth is not against "ecstasy"...such a good expression of it as "deep play" in the sub-concious, but I would stop short of God condoning chaos in ones life. God is the light and in Him there is no darkness at all. To satisfiy that need, the empty place that was created to be filled by God 's presense in man...filling that place with something else is the error. No drugs are required, no pleasures of this world..."material things, ect.. Just to be in that "Presence" is what gives a true ecstasy...if your heart is true and clean. Otherwise this could be a fearfull experiance. Once there was a temple in the wilderness, as a high priest was to go into the "holiest of holies" once a year. They tied a rope around his ankle, because to do so wrongly...going into the presece of God was death, They pulled him back out by the rope. Today it's death not to go in.... But it still has to be with a pure heart, and only the sacrifice of Christ can make a man clean, and ready to do so. He said; "you must be born again" to see the kingdom of God. And that is just the begginning of the journey.... Born as a babe, that baby has to grow up and be child trained to be about the father's buisness, senses exersised in the discenment of good and evil.
thats as may be, but theres no evidence for it. again no evidence. but does'nt explain the design flaw. and yet again back to no evidence.
************* M*W: A while back, maybe a year or so, I presented a simple question to the forum. I asked both religionists and non-religionists, and any answer from either camp would have been appreciated. I got no answer to my question, so here goes again, "What language does God speak? It says in Genesis that A&E were "ashamed when they heard the voice of God, and they tried to hide...". etc.. What language did God speak in Genesis? If there are any other references to God speaking, I would be interested to know what language God used. Thank you.
Im not so sure about that, why do most people need to wear glasses or have a corrective surgery to improve their vision? perfect design...hardly
it's just a nickname, belief in a god and following a religion are notions for fools and children. I am a little more rational.
i am the founder of the Empirical Church.... and it is based on science. there is no contradiction between science and religion.. only bad interpretations of both scripture and empirical evidense...(theory) anyone who says religion is foolish... obviously hasnt taken the time to seriously contemplate it.. and its relation to modern science. if anyone is the fool.. it is those who choose to blindly follow the lead of the secular ATHEISTS... who want everyone to stop believing in a GOD. -MT
Just a little humor there folks..... "I find your lack of faith disturbing".....is from "star wars" were darth vader reaches our a hand towards a faithless comander who has just told him; "modern science is more powerfull than out-dated religions like belief in "the force"...... As Vader reaches out his hand from across the room the commander is lifted off the ground and has his neck crushed passing out. Come on, ....I thought somebody would pick that up...! Man, we really got some winners here....
if yu cared to SERIOUSLY research mythology, you'd see that Christian motifs were ripp offs from PAGAN lore of the god~man. and that at the very centre of pagan agrarian rituals was the eating of a psychedelic sCRAMENT. THA is the 'sacrfice'. it is simultanously the sacrific of the actual psychedelic vegetation, AND theimbiber's rigid sense of self. what your christian faith did was remove those associatons overtly at any rate, ad HISTORICIZE the myth to mean an ACTUAL 'godman' was ONCE crucified on a cross at ONEtime in history they made myth into NEWS. useless news that has had many people in conlfict fro many centuries, causing all manner of wars etc
The relationship has already been established; science explains how things work while religion creates fantasies about how things work. Most have blindly followed religion for centuries and all its accomplished thus far is wars, ignorance and fear. Perhaps its time for a change.
