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9/11 Poll
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View Poll Results: Who was responsible for 9/11?
1- The official story regarding 9/11 is the sacred truth. Questioning it is blasphemous. 2 2.20%
2- The official story regarding 9/11 is more or less right. No need to investigate further. 39 42.86%
3- The official story regarding 9/11 is questionable in some areas. 18 19.78%
4- EoG (Elements of the Government) let 9/11 happen. 2 2.20%
5- EoG let 9/11 happen. EoG prevented the investigation of certain individuals before 9/11. 6 6.59%
6- EoG, perhaps in the form of a secret society, made 9/11 happen. 17 18.68%
7- Other 7 7.69%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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leopold99
I'm for against (13,386 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 05:34 PM
 #2041
  leopold99 is offline
“
Originally Posted by The Esotericist
Give it up, they could come out tomorrow and confess, these skeptics and myth supporters will STILL defend to till our final enslavement the official story. lol I've played a tape of Rumsfeld admitting flight 93 was shot down, a nurse who was in the conference room when the decision was made, comparative shots of the debris field for analysis and half of what you have presented. There's some really good new stuff here.
They don't care about evidence, they won't look at it if it destroys the official story, especially that piece from Harvard, won't go near that with a ten foot pole.
”
i've watched the video of a supposed rumsfeld making the supposed comment. i asked you for the source of this clip and so far it hasn't been forthcoming.
“
The argument with the explosive residue? It came from somewhere else. Apparently, the explosions at the world trade center that ejected the dust outward from the towers were not the cause for the explosive residue being found where it was. It must be found ON the debris pile, or it is inadmissible in the court of their public opinion. Sorry, no cigar.
”
yes, i stress that this stuff MUST be proven to have come from WTC 1&2.
i had no idea that would be such a problem for you.
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 05:46 PM
 #2042
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by leopold99
this all sounds very sinister . . . now.
up until 911 the CIA/pentagon and the FBI COULD NOT share information.
yes, the FBI knew certain things but because of the walls and compartments of the government prevented sharing of info these things went undiscovered.
the US patriot act smashed those walls.

about the samples:
no one in this thread, or anywhere else, has linked these samples to WTC 1&2.
how can you possibly say they were "kept safe"? you don''t even know what room of the house they were in, who had access to them, the humidity, temperature, nor anything else about their supposed "safe keeping".
one of the "witnesses" can't even say WHERE the dust they submitted came from.
”
They COULD share information through certain protocols if it was concerning NON-US citizens: -

"Four years after the nation's deadliest terror attack, evidence is accumulating that a super-secret Pentagon intelligence unit identified the organizer of the Sept. 11 hijackings, Mohamed Atta, as an Al Qaeda operative months before he entered the U.S. Had the FBI been alerted to what the Pentagon purportedly knew in early 2000, Atta's name could have been put on a list that would have tagged him as someone to be watched the moment he stepped off a plane in Newark, N.J., in June of that year. Physical and electronic surveillance of Atta, who lived openly in Florida for more than a year, and who acquired a driver's license and even an FAA pilot's license in his true name, might well have made it possible for the FBI to expose the Sept. 11 plot before the fact. Anthony Shaffer, a civilian Pentagon employee, says he was asked in the summer of 2000 by a Navy captain, Scott Phillpott, to arrange a meeting between the FBI and representatives of the Pentagon intelligence program, code-named Able/Danger. But he said the meeting was canceled after Pentagon lawyers concluded that information on suspected Al Qaeda operatives with ties to the U.S. might violate Pentagon prohibitions on retaining information on "U.S. persons," a term that includes U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens. Asked by Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, at a hearing last week whether Atta...was a "U.S. person," a senior Pentagon official answered, "No, he was not." "

Source for the above quote: -
h t tp :/ / ww w(.)wanttoknow.info/abledanger911[/url]
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 05:47 PM
 #2043
  Hoz_Turner is offline
The dust was from the World Trade Centre, and YOU are the conspiracy theorist by assuming otherwise. They produce affidavits, made video tape testimonies, etc regarding their collection of this dust.
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:11 PM
 #2044
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by Trippy
Nanometer scale pieces of Aluminium that produce XEDS indistinguishable from nanometer scale pieces of Aluminium Oxide. :/
”
So are you telling me that this advanced, nano-engineered material is nano-thermitic paint?

LOL

Thats an interesting interpretation if ever there was one. Although your information is clearly erroneous.
scott3x
Banned (3,789 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:16 PM
 #2045
  scott3x is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
The dust was from the World Trade Centre, and YOU are the conspiracy theorist by assuming otherwise. They produce affidavits, made video tape testimonies, etc regarding their collection of this dust.
”
Very good point. Frankly, I'm embarassed when it comes to people like leopold in this regard; NIST outright says it never tested for thermite; as far as I know, they may still have some samples they could test. Does leopold bat an eye at the fact that after 8 years they still haven't even stated whether or not they have some dust or steel they could test? No, apparently he's not concerned about the fact that NIST never bothered to test for thermite and has said almost nothing other then giving some lame reasons for not testing for it and is content to believe that the people who submitted samples somehow got a hold of this military grade nano thermite in an attempt to fool people into believing that it was actually obtained from ground zero. He's not even interested in coming up with a feasible motive for people to do this. Assuming that they're all lying and somehow all managed to get this military grade material is apparently easier for him to believe than the possibility that thermite was, in fact, present.
scott3x
Banned (3,789 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:18 PM
 #2046
  scott3x is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
“
Originally Posted by Trippy
Nanometer scale pieces of Aluminium that produce XEDS indistinguishable from nanometer scale pieces of Aluminium Oxide. :/
”
So are you telling me that this advanced, nano-engineered material is nano-thermitic paint?

LOL

Thats an interesting interpretation if ever there was one. Although your information is clearly erroneous.
”
Yeah, Trippy has imagined himself some nano paint apparently. I'd go with it, if we agreed that it was for blowing up things (which is what nano thermite is best for) such as, say, some WTC buildings, but somehow I don't think he'd like to follow me there :-p.
leopold99
I'm for against (13,386 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:29 PM
 #2047
  leopold99 is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
The dust was from the World Trade Centre, and YOU are the conspiracy theorist by assuming otherwise. They produce affidavits, made video tape testimonies, etc regarding their collection of this dust.
”
and where is all this stuff?
oh, i see, affidavits, as in "i scooped this stuff up, here it is"
video tape testimonies, see above.

prove this stuff wasn't blown off the roof of an adjacent building.
prove this stuff wasn't stored in an adjacent building and sucked up by the dust cloud.
prove this stuff wasn't "planted".

i grant you, i won't be holding my breath.

it's the "it was a bomb" movement that is assuming it came from WTC 1&2.

i know this much, it's been almost 8 years since 911 and not a single person from that pile has come forward saying bomb debris was found.
leopold99
I'm for against (13,386 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:36 PM
 #2048
  leopold99 is offline
“
Originally Posted by scott3x
Very good point. Frankly, I'm embarassed when it comes to people like leopold in this regard; NIST outright says it never tested for thermite; as far as I know, they may still have some samples they could test. Does leopold bat an eye at the fact that after 8 years they still haven't even stated whether or not they have some dust or steel they could test? No, apparently he's not concerned about the fact that NIST never bothered to test for thermite and has said almost nothing other then giving some lame reasons for not testing for it and is content to believe that the people who submitted samples somehow got a hold of this military grade nano thermite in an attempt to fool people into believing that it was actually obtained from ground zero. He's not even interested in coming up with a feasible motive for people to do this. Assuming that they're all lying and somehow all managed to get this military grade material is apparently easier for him to believe than the possibility that thermite was, in fact, present.
”
do yourself a favor scott, imagine that WTC 1&2 was your mother being accused of murder.
you will then understand a few things.
scott3x
Banned (3,789 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:38 PM
 #2049
  scott3x is offline
“
Originally Posted by leopold99
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
The dust was from the World Trade Centre, and YOU are the conspiracy theorist by assuming otherwise. They produce affidavits, made video tape testimonies, etc regarding their collection of this dust.
”
and where is all this stuff?
oh, i see, affidavits, as in "i scooped this stuff up, here it is"
video tape testimonies, see above.

prove this stuff wasn't blown off the roof of an adjacent building.
prove this stuff wasn't stored in an adjacent building and sucked up by the dust cloud.
prove this stuff wasn't "planted".

i grant you, i won't be holding my breath.

it's the "it was a bomb" movement that is assuming it came from WTC 1&2.

i know this much, it's been almost 8 years since 911 and not a single person from that pile has come forward saying bomb debris was found.
”
A gravitational collapse wouldn't have pulverized so much material; thus, it's clearly debris from explosives. But that's secondary to the fact that they've found the explosives themselves, the same explosives that NIST admits it never tested for. Do you care about the fact that NIST never tested for them? Apparently not. What I don't understand is -why- you apparently don't care.
scott3x
Banned (3,789 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:43 PM
 #2050
  scott3x is offline
“
Originally Posted by leopold99
“
Originally Posted by scott3x
Very good point. Frankly, I'm embarassed when it comes to people like leopold in this regard; NIST outright says it never tested for thermite; as far as I know, they may still have some samples they could test. Does leopold bat an eye at the fact that after 8 years they still haven't even stated whether or not they have some dust or steel they could test? No, apparently he's not concerned about the fact that NIST never bothered to test for thermite and has said almost nothing other then giving some lame reasons for not testing for it and is content to believe that the people who submitted samples somehow got a hold of this military grade nano thermite in an attempt to fool people into believing that it was actually obtained from ground zero. He's not even interested in coming up with a feasible motive for people to do this. Assuming that they're all lying and somehow all managed to get this military grade material is apparently easier for him to believe than the possibility that thermite was, in fact, present.
”
do yourself a favor scott, imagine that WTC 1&2 was your mother being accused of murder.
you will then understand a few things.
”
Mm. Looks like you just answered the question I'd asked. But not very many people needed to be involved. There are many government employees who question the official story:
41 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11: “Terribly Flawed,” “Laced with Contradictions,” “a Joke,” “a Cover-up” May 18, 2009

Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce”


Eight U.S. State Department Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 "Flawed", "Absurd", "Totally Inadequate", "a Cover-up"

Seven Senior Federal Engineers and Scientists Call for New 9/11 Investigation – Official Account of 9/11 "Impossible", "Hogwash", "Fatally Flawed"

Eight Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – "Not Possible", "a Whitewash", "False"
Trippy's Avatar Trippy
Aspirations of Obscurity (3,826 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:48 PM
 #2051
  Trippy is offline
“
Originally Posted by Tony Szamboti
There is a large force involved when a bullet impacts the skull, otherwise it could not penetrate it. I'll give you an idea why.

The shear strength of human bone is 7,000 psi parallel to the grain and 17,000 psi perpendicular to it. This is from Air Force and Navy ejection seat physiological studies. The human skull is approximately .300" thick.

The shear area of a .265" diameter x .300" long cylinder is .250 sq. inches.

Now to shear through .250 sq. inches of something with at least a 7,000 psi shear strength requires a minimum force of 1,750 lbs. This would also need to happen twice if the bullet leaves the head.

You can see testimony that the bullet hit JFK with over 1,600 lbs. of force so what I am showing you here is acurate. In that testimony they don't discuss what happens when the bullet exits. It does cause the force to be applied twice, so the work done can be calculated by applying the 1,750 lb. force over a distance of 0.6 inches which gives 1,050 inch-lb. If JFK's head weighed 10 lbs. then there was enough energy here to move it 105 inches or nearly 9 feet.
”
You analysis fails to ask some basic questions.
What was the mass of the brain matter that exited Kennedy's head through the exit wound?
What was the velocity of that brain matter?
How long did it take for the bullet to deform, then penetrate the Skull?

According to several sources, the muzzle velocity of the bullet that killed JFK was about 700 m/s.
The average Human brain weighs about 1.3-1.5kg
The round itself was 52mm long, and 6.5mm in diameter, for a volume of 3.38 cm^3.
The density of lead is 11.34g/cm^3, giving the bullet a mass of 38g.
This gives the slug a total momentum of 26.6 kgm/s.
The warren report appears to indicate that nearly half of the brain was excavated by the imapct (the majority of the right hemisphere).
Apparently the brain was preserved, but I have thus far been unable to track down any information about how much the preserved portion weighed.
If 40% of Kennedy's brain matter acheived 10% of the speed of the slug that hit him, then this would have a momentum of 39.2 kgm/s result in a net motion of Kennedy's head towards the shooter with a momentum of 12.6 kgm/s (conservation of momentum).
The average Human head weighs 4.5-5kg.
using the middle of this range, gives a net motion of kennedy's head towards the shooter of 2.7/ms.
The Bullet has a kinetic energy of 9.6 kJ upon entry.
The portion of Kennedy's brain that exited through the wound (as used above) would have had a kinetic energy of 1.4 kJ, requiring the slug to have slowed down by only 43m/s.
All of this happened in the time that it took the bullet to travel approximately 11cm (the wound was 13cm in it's largest direction, however, that's along the surface of the skull, but the bullet would have followed a chord, where the wound followed an arc, the radius of a sphere with a 1400cc volume is 7cm, the length of an arc for a 13cm chord, on a circle with a 7cm radius is 11cm, and yes, I know the human skull isn't sphereical, don't like it, present more accurate info.).

At an average speed of 678m/s that would have taken all of 0.162ms.
An acceleration of 4.19kg to 2.7m/s in 0.162ms requires an (average) force of 69.8kN, which is 15,691 lbs of force.

So, when one considers the conservation of momentum, and the amount of JFK's brain that was (likely) to be ejected, if the material was ejected with only 9% of the muzzle velocity of the slug that hit him (63 m/s), it would still result in a net backward motion of Kennedy's head.
Trippy's Avatar Trippy
Aspirations of Obscurity (3,826 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:53 PM
 #2052
  Trippy is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
So are you telling me that this advanced, nano-engineered material is nano-thermitic paint?

LOL

Thats an interesting interpretation if ever there was one. Although your information is clearly erroneous.
”
My information comes from independent peer reviewed sources published in journals. Where does yours come from again?

Here is Harrit's Fig 17, which is HIS XEDS of the aluminium rich areas:


Here is a spectra of nanometer scale Aluminium oxide (I have previously linked to the article this was published in).


Note the similarities in the spectra.
One might go as far as calling them Identical (aside from the 'incidental elements').

It's not my information that's faulty.
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 06:55 PM
 #2053
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by leopold99
and where is all this stuff?
oh, i see, affidavits, as in "i scooped this stuff up, here it is"
video tape testimonies, see above.

prove this stuff wasn't blown off the roof of an adjacent building.
prove this stuff wasn't stored in an adjacent building and sucked up by the dust cloud.
prove this stuff wasn't "planted".

i grant you, i won't be holding my breath.

it's the "it was a bomb" movement that is assuming it came from WTC 1&2.

i know this much, it's been almost 8 years since 911 and not a single person from that pile has come forward saying bomb debris was found.
”
from Steven Jones "Scientific Method" paper:

"My first 9/11-related paper appeared on-line in November 2005, and Janette MacKinlay soon learned from it that I was seeking WTC dust and other samples for study. She contacted me and sent me a small sample by mail. Later, I traveled to her new residence in California and obtained a second small sample in the presence of other scientists. These samples have been analyzed using electron microprobe methods, both WDS and X-EDS....

The analysis continues to the date of this writing. The dust contains a great deal of information regarding its origin and is proving extremely useful as we puzzle out the meaning of 9/11."

Indeed, the forensic chemical profile of the dust obtained from Janette is backed up by reports from USGS and the EPA as well as a peer-reviewed study in the journal "The Environmentalist" where the unusual chemical species are documented. The iron microspheres generated from the nano-thermite found in all samples have the same chemical profile as those discovered by independent agencies. The only thing unique to Jones et al is their discovery of the nano-thermite.

Why would all these residents pass around these dust samples to a very select few agencies that had the technology to produce nano-thermite before Dr Jones et al requested the samples?

Explain to me the likelihood of all the dust samples having the same characteristics, all the people collaborating and having the same motivation, etc. Thats one mighty bit of speculation. The residents kept the samples for safe keeping, given even early complaints about EPA telling LIES about its safety!
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:00 PM
 #2055
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by Trippy
My information comes from independent peer reviewed sources published in journals. Where does yours come from again?

Here is Harrit's Fig 17, which is HIS XEDS of the aluminium rich areas:


Here is a spectra of nanometer scale Aluminium oxide (I have previously linked to the article this was published in).


Note the similarities in the spectra.
One might go as far as calling them Identical (aside from the 'incidental elements').

It's not my information that's faulty.
”
I don't trust that you are even qualified to interpret X-EDS data, never mind the visualisations.

Do you realise that you are still trying to tell me that this was nano-thermitic paint?
Trippy's Avatar Trippy
Aspirations of Obscurity (3,826 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:00 PM
 #2056
  Trippy is offline
“
Originally Posted by scott3x
Yeah, Trippy has imagined himself some nano paint apparently. I'd go with it, if we agreed that it was for blowing up things (which is what nano thermite is best for) such as, say, some WTC buildings, but somehow I don't think he'd like to follow me there :-p.
”
You're trolling [insult deleted].

I've already presented you with evidence that demsontrates that Harrits spectra are indistinguishable from other spectra of Aluminiun Oxide of comparable length scales.

It's been explained to you that the pain contained Kaolinite, and that Kaolinite dehydrates into Silica and aluminium oxide when heated above a certain temperature.

It's been explained to you how the presence of Aluminium is incompatable with the lack of an observed reaction with MEK (this is perhaps the most damming point in your bullshit hypothesis).

It's been explained to you that things that dehydrate tend to break into smaller pieces, and that Kaolinite particles are of a submicron scale to begin with.

All you're left with is redherrings, straw clutching, and cognitive dissonance, so you resort to trolling, becaus eyou have been unable to explain away any of the above points which individually are sufficient to scuttle this nanothermite BS.
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:01 PM
 #2057
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by leopold99
i read the first link until i came to the phrase "the chance of these buildings collapsing into their footprint is extremely slim".
structural engineers at JOM say exactly the opposite scott.
i won't even bother reading the rest.
”
You appear to be suffering from cognitive dissonance: -

h t t p://www(.)onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_628.shtml
Hoz_Turner
Registered User (55 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:03 PM
 #2058
  Hoz_Turner is offline
“
Originally Posted by Trippy
You're trolling fucktard.

I've already presented you with evidence that demsontrates that Harrits spectra are indistinguishable from other spectra of Aluminiun Oxide of comparable length scales.

It's been explained to you that the pain contained Kaolinite, and that Kaolinite dehydrates into Silica and aluminium oxide when heated above a certain temperature.

It's been explained to you how the presence of Aluminium is incompatable with the lack of an observed reaction with MEK (this is perhaps the most damming point in your bullshit hypothesis).

It's been explained to you that things that dehydrate tend to break into smaller pieces, and that Kaolinite particles are of a submicron scale to begin with.

All you're left with is redherrings, straw clutching, and cognitive dissonance, so you resort to trolling, becaus eyou have been unable to explain away any of the above points which individually are sufficient to scuttle this nanothermite BS.
”
Nonsense and irrelevant diversions seem to perpetually emanate from your keyboard, Mr. Trippy.

The material is clearly an engineered nano-thermitic incendiary.
Trippy's Avatar Trippy
Aspirations of Obscurity (3,826 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:04 PM
 #2059
  Trippy is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
I don't trust that you are even qualified to interpret X-EDS data, never mind the visualisations.

Do you realise that you are still trying to tell me that this was nano-thermitic paint?
”
What you don't realize, or understand is that I've sort the opnions of people with greater klnowledge of XEDS than myself, and they have confirmed everything that i've said.

Where's the proof that it had any thermitic properites whatsoever?
Trippy's Avatar Trippy
Aspirations of Obscurity (3,826 posts)
Old 06-30-09, 07:06 PM
 #2060
  Trippy is offline
“
Originally Posted by Hoz_Turner
Nonsense and irrelevant diversions seem to perpetually emanate from your keyboard, Mr. Trippy.

The material is clearly an engineered nano-thermitic incendiary.
”
In your fetid imagination, perhaps.

Have you ever studied any Geolgy? Chemistry? Soil Science?
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