Abortion

If the couple is that involved together in all these things, then they probably will make the decision together.

More importantly, by the time the question is about abortion, we have already failed. I don't mean responsibly, I mean society has failed to provide cheap, easy, convenient birth control. We need a male pill.

 

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Europe.
To say nothing of bosses who blackmail their female employees to have sex with them or lose their job.

 

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This and that

And that umbilical cord.

Something about rational and logical argument goes here, and being too emotionally invested.

• • •​

Welcome, Yellow Jacket, to our humble bedlam. Unfortunately, you're a little late. We've been laughing that one off for a while.

Still, let us consider your comparison. When the implications are put before people, the anti-choice crowd generally isn't too anxious to answer the question. Especially in consideration of proposed laws that were themselves aborted.

Perhaps you might develop your idea for us, so we might see how it works. Would you be so kind as to describe the organizational structure and investigational criteria for a local police department's theoretic Department of Menstrual Investigations? Staff size? Budget? Mandate? Just ... how is this going to work? ("Your ex-boyfriend says you had an unexpected bloody discharge two months ago. Why didn't you call us?")

I adore this argument. See, I'm bisexual, so if women take that advice and stop putting out, I can still get some. But all those guys who aren't getting laid because women won't open their legs unless they intend to have a baby? Let me guess, the woman's just being a bitch? Or, worse yet, a lesbian?

 

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Actually, I, unlike you, have been honest. Friends were reading along and we were commenting. This one that joined was still awake and not necessarily known extraordinarily well-- but decided to join at your post responding an invitation to join (along with you implication that I had invented a tale and asking that Mods check IP.)

Your lack of honesty and manipulative techniques are glaringly obvious Bells. You really should drop the act. You're just not very good at it.

More complete Dishonesty.

You seem to lack the fortitude and the honor of self introspection and correction.
The problem is not my inability to cope with being questioned.

The problem is your manipulation and Ignoring all answers, claiming no answers were given, applying repeated questions that have been answered, further ignoring of answers, repeating questions that have been answered-- on and on and on with no end in sight. I demonstrated this in post 359.

I notice that you refuse, still, to respond to post 359 in which it was clarified where you continued to ignore answers and continued to use
Profanity
vulgar wording
Insults
and condescension/derision along with repetative questioning on issues I have repeatedly answered to the best of my ability. Your hounding and browbeating are clear.

How difficult would it be, Bells, to be adult enough to admit that you missed a post of mine, misunderstood me or otherwise were in error? Is it Really So Very Hard for you to do that?

Let me Help You Out:
I am going to answer all of your questions in One Go. Let others who have read the thread decide whether or not I have answered these same points.

My stance is simple, although the issue is complex. Due to the complexity of the issue, it may make my answer appear to be more complex than it is.

I "believe" that living life includes being responsible for actions, choices and decisions. This is true for jobs, buying materials, maintaining such and relationships.
Emotions are a large factor and a relevant factor in this issue. To say that emotions should not be involved is absurd. All any of us can do is to try to maintain our emotions in order to speak reasonably. I admit I haven't maintained them well.
A zygote is more than a hair follicle. This is not to be misinterpretted as "equal Rights" as a mother. It is simple statement of fact that I'm sure any rational person can agree with. A zygote is composed of stem cells which bear unique properties. A zygote is a process of development, not a finished product. It deserves respect for those existent and undeniable properties. That respect is, as I previously described, not an issue of equality. One respects diamonds for the properties they hold. They are inanimate, yet useful and that respect will have a bearing on a decision on what to do with a diamond. This is Simple and I will not tolerate dissembling of the post in order to Manipulate it into things I have NOT SAID.
That respect is nothing more than a factor in the decision making process. At no point does the existence of respect claim that equal rights are involved, (I am not equal to a diamond) nor does it make a demand on anyone to do something they do not want to.
It merely stands for what it is as it is -- a factor in the decsion.
Sex is pleasurable because that is a huge reason to reproduce--evolutionarily effective for survival. However, it's purpose is reproduction. We all know this. We all know the responsibility that comes from having sex.
From STD's to pregnancy, our knowledge of risks is essential in order to maintain the practice. This is also, not unreasonable, and it does not speak of force.
I have stated that I am disturbed by the idea of Frivilous or casual abortions. No one can claim that I have no right to say that. No one could claim that I am less of a man for having said that.
What you are left with is a Heavy decision. It is not light, as throwing away the wrapper of a snickers bar. Just as I have said that a Zygote is not equal to the life of the mother, a snickers wrapper is not equal to a zygote.

A fetus is a much further development of the process than a zygote, just as a baby is a further development of the fetus and an adult a further development of a baby.
That is most certainly not a difficult concept to understand...

To Answer Bells Inappropriatly asked (She asked repeatedly after I answered and accused me of being a person that would kill momma to save zygote etc. AFTER claiming to have read my posts in which I said I would not...)questions:

Should a woman be forced to carry a child to term: No.
Should a woman be sacrificed to save a zygote: No, that's absurd.
Should a woman be sacrificed to save a fetus: I think an adult still carries more weight than a potential adult. My answer is No, although I'm open to the fact many people feel a child, being innocent and fresh, deserves a fresh chance. This is not a clear situation as peoples opinions on worth of life vary greatly. Simply put, I can think that most of the time a mothers life has more weight--- it's a complex questions and not easily answered.
Should a woman who was subject to rape etc be forced to carry a child to term: No.
Should a woman who is ill be coerced into carrying a child: No.
Should a woman contemplating abortion discuss it with her mate: Absolutely.
Should a woman be open to others ideas about such a weighty decision: Absolutely.
Should a woman be subjected to mental anguish and browbeating: No.
Do I "believe" that abortion is Wrong or Right: It's a hard decision and should not be taken lightly. It is not about "right and wrong" as much as about circumstances, unpredictables, necessity and responsibility.

For the Record, considering that Bells made a claim about my sons mom decided not to abort: I had stated the issue was not discussed, I had Personally Wondered if she would think of it and asked her if she was-- her answer was an Emphatic NO. That is All that was said and I am appalled by her manipulations of what I had said into making it appear as though I had degraded my sons mother. You speak of right to speak, Bells, yet you resort to some of the lowest tactics I've ever seen.

I've come to the conclusion that it is unhealthy to discuss anything in depth with you, Bells. I will ignore anything in depth from you should you direct a post at me and maintain light and distant posts between us in order to ensure that you no longer have been granted the ability to twist, manipulate, distort or otherwise, use intellectual dishonesty against me as you have done in this thread --- Across the entire forum at this point. I'm sure we will both be better off for it.

 

Yes, he should have a say, but only in the literal sense, in that he should get to voice his opinion. He should never get to force a woman to carry something inside her body that she doesn't want there. It's her having nutrients taken from her blood for nine months, her having her body and movements altered, her having to watch what she eats and deal with any addictions she might have and give up any activity where she might get an impact injury.

Like I said. When men can carry children, sure, I shall be happy in the event of an unwanted pregnancy to simply have the thing removed and have it implanted in the father's body. Until then,

Ooh, I just saw this old one:

Ya know, last time I checked, having sex is not a felony for which one must be punished by being forced to have a child.

Would you force someone to 'suffer the consequences' in any other situation?

Like I said in my thread

 

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Of course he has a say.
They had a say before they had sex, too. I'm sure most couples do discuss the issue ahead of time, so it rarely becomes a major problem.
So this, really, is as it must be. I can see a lot of people playing the system for whatever reasons if a man could force a women to carry a zygote until it was more.
I absolutely think a father has a say in the matter.
But my admission of that does NOT mean I am claiming he can force her, either.
I'm glad to see agreement on this issue.

If a man commits a felony of putting his hand in a saw, he suffers the punishment of the removal of his hand. I'm sure he didn't WANT that to happen...

I think I can see why if someone points this out-- the other side thinks he is confused or advocating a pro life stance.
Nonsense, he's simply pointing out that life is cause and effect.

V.I.- you are making it look like pregnancy is a punishment for the crime of sex. That is flat out not the case. It's cause and effect.

No, if you mess up a move in parkour, you must accept the consequences that are the INJURY you sustained from messing up.

If you are injured, will you not try to alleviate the symptoms?

 

Bells, I can see, I think, where I may have confused you, simply because of the example given in my response to V.I.

359 was no joke. What it did was show how you repeatedly posed accusatory questions after the answer.
I have not been a yo yo-- you have failed to understand my posts.

I never denied Both. You say you quote me directly? Then quote directly where I denied having emotion on the issue. 'Ranting' is a relative term. You can THINK I'm ranting doesn't mean that I am ranting. So that accusation is really not relevant. I could easily accuse you of the same.

I apologized for my commentary about your husband and I admitted that I ws influenced by your behavior. You withheld the claim that you were very ill at the time of your pregnancy-- and made it appear quite casual.
So don't talk to me about a lack of clairty.

I have been clear all along.
I repreatedly asked you to go back and read my posts. I tried to get you to do that again and again. As a last ditch effort, I made a post pointing out that if someone keeps saying you are misunderstanding them- there is a High Probability that you are. That post was also ignored.
Post 359 shows clearly your failure to do so, your failure to see basic and concise wording, your failure to address that wording.
Instead of raising the same old questions, you could, instead, quote me directly and ask me about what I SAID and not ask me about things I had not said.
I pointed out that you won't respond to it- Because frankly I think you're well aware that you cannot refute it with your claims of lack of clarity or nonanswers. It boxed you in, so you had to ignore it and continue to try to make it appear as though it was a "joke." Yet-- the post is Still There...


ETA: Yes, I have behaved poorly in this thread as well. It's not Easy to admit that. It's further aggrevating to have these admissions used against me.
I apologize for my poor behavior and I am trying to keep myself in check and not go off on the tempting tirade I would like to.
Sincerely Bells, If I personally slighted your situation, your husband or the practice you chose-- I do apologize for that. I was wrong. I do not make frivilous apologies. When I make one- I mean it.
I cannot apologize for my accusations in regard to how you have conducted yourself.

 

Ack. I'm sorry if I implied that, I didn't mean to.

I don't mean that having a baby is a punishment for having sex. I meant that being forced to have the baby when you don't want it, is akin to treating sex as a crime that requires punishment.

Yes. Just like if I accidentally got pregnant and definitely didn't want to carry it to term, I'd abort it asap while it was still undeveloped.

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So you see it as a cause and effect but the effect is manageable?
Like that man getting his hand treated at the hospital.
To some, that hand is already gone as an effect that must be accepted and dealt with.
I see it as they should not be forced. But they should consider the entire choice with the weight it actually has because the effect has an item develop that is MORE than a glob of goo. I see it as a Hard choice, not a casual one. And that choice should bear the full responsibility.
To force a person is to not only strip away the right, but the responsibility as well. That is more dangerous for all involved in some cases.

To use your parkour example: If you practice, you are aware you might injure yourself at some point. You go into it fully aware of this and should that happen, you must deal with the pain.
Pregnancy is not injury, it's also something that brings something GOOD. Unlike a sports injury, which is all bad and can even have lasting effects, parenting brings good effects too.
So unlike taking a pain reliever, a person must weigh in the factors that still exist. Denial of them makes no sense.
Let's say you're deciding on buying a car. YOu won't JUST consider gas mileage and cost and insurance, you'll consider the benefits, too. It's that way in all choices. Thus; my repeated pointing out the factors involved and comparing them to all other things in life which have less emotional response.
Unlike that man at the hospital treating his hand, where he has only vast negatives to the consequences, birth has benefits, too.
This is not forcing. It's clarifying, applying consideration.

Ok. I find that reasonable.

Can you see where I have issue with a person doing it when it IS developed?
You Previously said "If my Birth control Fails". This implies that Abortion would be a logical last resort. Is that the case?

 

No they shouldn't. Sex should be entirely divorced from reproduction. No one should have to contemplate creating a human being when all they want to do is "it".

 

Uhhh... take it up with the Divine Creator?

It is a result of doing "it" even if they think it shouldn't be or have wishful thinking that it isn't.

If all they want is it without kids, do they not need to take preventive measures? It cannot BE divorced. Not without some medical and genetic technology we either don't have or don't have the means to employ.
So, as it is, one must understand that the two are entirely related.

 

What about it? You keep repeaing 'umbilical cord' as if they are two magic words. Yet not even they change the fact that the child exists prior to being born.

Cute. You can't rebutt my argument, so you simply dismiss it out of hand.

I re-iterate: If it is criminally negligent to deny a born baby the essentials of life, it should also be considered criminally negligent to deny an unborn baby sustainence.

 

Did I say that there was a risk? No, I didn't. See, this is what I meant about you putting words into the mouths of your opponents.

What I did say is that there are implications for the health workers. After all, they are the one terminating the life.

And a born baby is nothing like a sixty year old human. However, we value the lives of both (although interestingly, babies receive preferential treatment when it comes to medical waiting list).

Here, I'll put it simply for you. Fetus. Born baby. Toddler. Child. Teenager. Adult. Elder. All human. All who are at different phases in the developmental cycle.

I re-iterate, read the two posts of his (hers?) that you quoted. It's spelt out there.

I can't blame them. Your obtuseness gets annoying after a while.

But wait, you're pro-choice, aren't you? Why are you interfering?! Why are you meddling?! Hypocrite! Pseudo-prochoicer!

Misrepresentation. I never said they were the same. I simply feel that any differences between the two have no bearing on their humanity.

No shit.

Nor did the law once recognise the equality of black people. The scientific fact of the matter is that the child exists. That the law may disagree with this simply demonstrates that the law favours rhetoric and popular opinion over fact.

Of course. That's because the only inconsistencies were the ones you dreamt up.

I disagree.

I disagree.

 

I have a dumb question
Do abortion procedures have any detrimental affects on a woman (physically)?
Are there complications, risks or cases of harm done?

Are they unpleasant (physically)?

 

Any abortion or even pregnancy can have its risks. Most abortions are quite safe when they are done in a reputable clinic which is the norm when they are legal. Women risk hemorrhaging, infection and sometimes if its really botched the inability to ever have children. Bells before I believe also pointed out that if they don't get all the fetus matter it can lead to a D&C procedure.

They are not supposed to be really physically unpleasant. Women generally say its like having a really really bad period after the fact, of course they will bleed

 

Your not responding to my post. I asked you:

"What if she wants to abort and he is opposed? Who gets the final decision?"

Meaning if after he is told and he wants the child but she doesn't want to carry a child to term then what.

The rest of it was this:

"Most men know the woman is going to have an abortion anyway and quite often also pay for it but that's besides the point. If the guy isn't in the picture at all it really doesn't matter what he thinks but its unlikely a woman in a relationship will abort without letting her mate know she is pregnant."

Meaning if a woman is in a relationship or is married then she will most likely tell her partner about the fact she is pregnant but not ready or what have you. A woman would only withhold the information if there are other circumstances, like for example there is no real relationship with the father, or she and he are both underage or she's married to a religious man doesn't believe in birth control and she doesn't want a 5th or 6th child. The problem with this discussion is that the lives of each person who would make such a decision is so personal that there are too many variables to consider objectively. Meaning each woman has her own story and her reasons why she includes or doesn't include the male and we could use our imaginations all day coming up with scenarios of why one would or would not.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't have anything to do with my post. Sorry.

As for the law I posted this earlier in the thread:

"A male who suspects he has fathered a child can only assert parental rights after paternity has been established. Most states now require a paternity test to be made by using DNA testing rather than a blood test. The U.S. Supreme court ruled it was unconstitutional and a violation of a woman's civil rights for an abortion to be refused on the grounds that the "possible" father objected. In other words a man who believes he is the father has no legal grounds or procedure to oppose the woman's decision to obtain an abortion."

So basically even if the man is the woman's husband he cannot legally deny his wife from having an abortion never mind a boyfriend or booty call or whatever the relationship may be.

Oh wait, by the way. A few points of clarification from your previous posts, you asked why are men all put in the same boat when there are men who would stroke their partners back and help out etc. but then you make sweeping statements about women being dishonest as if there is a specific example involved, you call this hypothetical woman irresponsible for laying down but she isn't laying down by herself so why isn't he also being irresponsible?

You asked for facts on my statement that many men pay for a woman's abortion, well there are no 'facts', there are personal experiences. I have known single as well as married women who have had abortions, in the one case my friend is married and living in Denmark so the health services payed for the abortion and he went along with her (they had two children at the time and now they have a little girl). In the other cases in was at university here in the States and their boyfriends footed the bill for them to go to an abortion clinic.