Abortion

correction "pro choice" not prolife, sorry folks

 

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Bells you might find this interesting:

These authors surveyed 1,000 men in 30 abortion clinics across the United States and followed up with postabortion interviews involving 75 of those men. The persistence of occasional thoughts about the fetus was evident among the majority of post abortion men interviewed. Less than one third of the men reported having no thoughts about the fetus and 9% reported having frequent thoughts.

In addition, the men were observed to suffer from ambivalence as evidenced by the fact that while "39% believed the fetus was a human life, and 26% felt that abortion was the killing of a child, 83% did not want abortion outlawed" (p. 38). In fact, "only 15% believed the fetus was not human until birth and ... as many as 60% were troubled by the irrevocable ending of the life they had helped set in motion" (p. 162). Of those men surveyed, 11% stated that they were opposed to their partners' decision to abort and were described as experiencing a very profound sense of personal loss.

http://www.menandabortion.info/l0-research.html

Note the ambivalence.

 

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And what if they don't agree? What if she wants to abort and he is opposed? Who gets the final decision? Most men know the woman is going to have an abortion anyway and quite often also pay for it but that's besides the point. If the guy isn't in the picture at all it really doesn't matter what he thinks but its unlikely a woman in a relationship will abort without letting her mate know she is pregnant.

 

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Ha! I can see you won't stick around for long

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If you want objective science then I suggest you stick to the forums that are strictly science all the rest is just a wrestling match with a lot of eye poking and ear biting.

 

Thank You.

As you can see, this choice carries weight.
It's not something to be taken lightly.
That's all I have been trying to say!
In spite of Bells insistence that I must be Pro Life and describing me as such repeatedly, her stance is that it's a "Thing"
Fine. That's HER opinion. It doesn't mean others MUST adhere to that or suffer character assassination or repetative brow beating and inaccurate claims.

 

Well you know there are many women who don't have overwhelming feelings towards the fetus when they are pregnant even when they want the baby. Sometimes they don't really 'feel' that its a baby until it starts kicking. Some women are completely ambivalent towards their own pregnancy until the baby is laying in their arms but many women simply don't talk about that as it may make them appear heartless. You know women are supposed to be all cheery over their pregnancies but in reality there are women who just go through the motions and some are even resentful of their 9 month condition and all it entails but still go on to love their child when it is born.

It really is like giving your life over which is something I think that men don't completely understand even if they are a father. All your nutrients go to the child, your body is altered, your life is no longer about you. Its a big deal, pretty heavy stuff.

 

Mordea: you keep referring to it as a 'baby' no matter what stage it is in.

Do you honestly see a 2 week old conceptus as a person who should be respected??

A fertilized egg?

 

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Seriously? Most men? An abortion anyways? Isn't that kind of the reason I said the father should have a choice? So basically, your statement here is saying that father should not have the right to raise their own child which they help create. Because a woman decided to get all hot and heavy and enjoy having sex and then OOPS, she gets pregnant.....it gives her the right to screw over the father in his choice if he wants to raise the child?
What ever happened to a woman being responsible for her dumb choices she made? I would love to see the statistics on how many women didn't inform the father prior to having abortions, but wait! Why would a dishonest woman answer that honestly?
When I hear people say things like this, all I can think of is "Man hater". What other explanation is there for not allowing men to have a choice in the creation they made? Especially if he is willing to buck up, be a man, and take care of his child?
If they disagree, who decides? Guess that would be where laws come into place, not sure how that one would be resolved. You see, many are going to argue the woman has to carry the child for 9 months, so she should have the ultimate decision. Tough one there. Yet it comes down to this again. BEING RESPONSIBLE for our own actions. If you rob a bank and get caught, you go to jail. If you run a red light and hit another car, you have to deal with the insurance company and courts. So why are we so quick to decide that a forming life we created, we don't need to be responsible for?
Please show me the facts that " Most men know the woman is going to have an abortion anyway and quite often also pay for it but that's besides the point."

 

How little you know me sweetheart. Apparently it is a forum for beating a person down until they agree without using supportive facts for their statements. Thanks for the warm welcome!!

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At least not as a sock-puppet...

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@ Bells

Hmmmmm, earlier you said you weren't getting emotional.

hmmmmm....the obvious tone, despite what you claim would say other wise. Definitly emotional.
Funny, after carefully reading from page 1 to 20, I do see where you have cleverly manipulated and twisted Neverfly's and lightgigantic's words. You constantly nit picked like a piranha at their statements, twisting their points of view. Why I don't know. Perhaps it being a new day with fresh eyes, you can look back without all the emotion involved.


P.S. Being that I am new, I'm not allowed to post all the links to reference the inconsitent statements, the emotional sarcastic undertoned responses I found. Sorry, I tried.

 

...the woman has to carry the child for 9 months, so she should have the ultimate decision. ​

You got that right. We can try to be "responsible", but we evolved to have sex. Everything about us is geared towards reproduction, so we are at the mercy of hormones. We should be responsible, but all too often we are not, especially if we are young and inexperienced. No amount of whining about responsibility is going to make people more responsible. So, we often have to kill our offspring before they mature enough to where it becomes an ethical dilemma. Evolution did not anticipate a time when children would become a liability to society rather than an asset. Most children in the past died in childbirth or soon after. We were meant to have more than necessary.

A man invests several minutes in the act, the woman invests many months, and it's growing inside her, so she gets to choose.

 

@Yellow Jacket, I'd love to hear this reasoning that means that being responsible = having the child. I'd say having a child you don't want, adding another child to a world that has already too many of them that need caring for, is grossly irresponsible.

And he can have a choice when medical science comes up with some way to remove the embryo or zygote from her body and implant it into him, and he can be pregnant instead of her. Until then, since she has to carry the thing inside her, it's her choice.

 

Android Lust says it better than me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-XgMHn8WMY

Lyrics:

This body belongs to me
To fuck, to hurt, to kill
And if I choose to give it all up
It's my deal in the end

Do you understand?!

You think you have the right
'Cuz you fucked me a couple of times
To tell me what to do
With this damn body of mine

You just don't understand

You say you know it all
Trust or take the fall
And feed me all this shit about
What's good for me and all

You just don't understand

Kill it? Heal it? Hate it!!
This time I've got to get you off of my back!

This body belongs to me
To take it where I will
And if I choose to be a cunt
The decision is mine to make

Do you understand?
Do you understand?

This body belongs to me
To fuck, to hurt, to kill
And if I choose to give it all up
It's my deal in the end

Do you understand?

 

Exactly. Nowadays, one often cannot afford to act morally without seriously endangering one's basic survival.

For example, it is a growing trend to add a stipulation to a woman's job contract that she agrees that her employment be terminated if she chooses to become a mother. Although this is generally illegal, it is happening.

 

LG has been making the point from the beginning on that it is not realistic to think abortion could be criminalized overnight, but that there could take place a change of society over time that would make it normal for abortion to become criminalized and thus illegal.

 

Why do you make the argument personal at this point?

I suspect it is because you think that a child inside the womb is nothing but mere tissue. So to you, someone interfering with another's right to have an abortion is along the same lines as someone interfering with another's right to have their tonsils removed.

 

I agree with the idea that no amount of whining about responsibility is going to make people more responsible.



I do disagree with the idea that a man only invests minutes. Why are we lumping all men into one category? There are plenty of men out there who take time off from work to go to the appointments, hold back her hair as she throws up, cooks because the smell makes her sick. Help her with household chores. They go to all the classes with her, some even shop for the baby and maternity clothes with the woman. They deal with her emotional hormonal ride. They rub her back, her aching feet. Some men have even taken maternity leave or fought for it. They were there for the child birth. They ached and worried over the mother of their child. Some even take on another job just to pay the medical bills or get the things the mother wants/needs for the baby or to suppliment the income because the mother isn't working. Do not take that away from those responsible men. Just because they didn't actually physically carry the child doesn't mean that they only invested a few minutes.


The problem is here that it is a touchy situation. How can one force a woman to carry a child? Would she eat right, not smoke or drink, go to all appointments if she had to carry the baby for 9 months for the father willing to take over sole responsibility? Probably not. I do wonder how many if they had to, would change their mind once they felt the baby move and see that life within them during the ultrasound? Many women who give up their child for adoption say that once they felt that or have given birth want to change their minds.

 

Would be greatly interested to see examples of this growing trend. Many work places have seemed to do the opposite. Some have even opened daycare centers at their locations, offer daycare payment plans (my job did), some are allowing for breaks for pumping breast milk, and some places are allowing for the father to take maternity leave. Where is this growing trend happening?

 

I already gave my reasoning earlier. My point was that if the father wants to care for the child he should have a say. It wouldn't be adding another child to a world that has too many of then that need caring for and it being grossly irresponsible. Because there would be a responsible parent there to care for the child.

The day a man can carry a child.....awesome. I think alot more men would be giving out more backrubs and foot massages!

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Oh yeah, and getting the bubble bath ready, LOL!