George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

Bells said:
As someone who is asthmatic, I can assure you, you can actually do that when you have difficulty breathing.

Having had attacks where I collapsed and went blue, I went down still telling people I could not breathe. You would be surprised at how much not wanting to die makes you communicate what is wrong, despite what others may believe.

And we know he could not breathe, because he died. You could watch the time it happened. It was all caught on camera.


That's nice.

Except Chauvin did not arrest him. He had already been arrested and was being placed in a police car when Chauvin arrived, where upon Chauvin dragged him out of a police car - by dragging him across the back seat of the police car, and then knelt on his neck until he died. You can see it in the video I linked to Vociferous, above.

When Lane checked his pulse and found no pulse, Chauvin still failed to lift his knee and provide medical assistance. He still kept his knee on that man's neck even after the ambulance arrived. And they then delayed medical assistance when the fire truck arrived at the request of the paramedics and they refused to tell them where the ambulance was going or Floyd's condition.

But fear not. Chauvin's lawyers went with the tried and much used argument of the black man's size and strength, buying into the racist myth that has existed since white people chained and whipped black people in America and then dropped this bomb:

https://twitter.com/WUTangKids/status/1376571696283549700

Also here:

Nelson, predictably, used his opening statement to try to make Floyd the defendant and onlookers his accomplices. Several times, he highlighted Floyd’s physical size — which should come as no surprise. Throughout U.S. history, the idea of Black men as superhuman in their strength and subhuman in how they use it has been used to justify our restraint, our incarceration, our lynching.

Nelson also sought to justify Chauvin’s actions by saying Chauvin and the other officers had to “divert” their attention to the small crowd that had gathered to watch what was happening and to complain about how Floyd was being treated. Again, this was unintentionally revealing: Those bystanders, like Floyd, were citizens whom those officers were sworn to protect. They were not the enemy, and no video we have seen indicates they posed any threat to Chauvin or his colleagues.

The opening statements made clear that much will be made of Floyd’s medical cause of death. Nelson indicated he will claim that Floyd died of an overdose of opioids. We can expect testimony from dueling experts on the question.

We should know by now — after so many travesties, including George Zimmerman’s acquittal for killing Trayvon Martin — that it is all too possible to convince juries to blame the victim if the victim is a Black man.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d9f50-90b6-11eb-bb49-5cb2a95f4cec_story.html]​


They had apparently diverted their attention to the crowd that had gathered telling them to get off his neck and check his pulse because he was not responding... Instead of apparently "caring" for Floyd. Which is how and why this happened. Because they were called names like "bum".

I guess this explains why he looked so relaxed with his hands in his pocket as he did it, and why he kept it there even after the ambulance arrived and why they then refused to tell the fire department where the ambulance had gone after the FD was called in to provide assistance as Floyd was in active cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

They blamed the victim because he's a big black man.
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He didn't die from being choked. The autopsy didn't show strangulations or lack of air. He had a heart attack.
The comment about a big black man is appropriate when you are 6'4" and when 3 officers couldn't get him into the back of the police car (otherwise none of this would have happened).

It doesn't matter who arrested him, my point was all of this took place as part of the arresting process. If they weren't being respectful they could have just beat him until he was stuffed in the police car.

I agree that the last few minutes is the problematic part and that's where the whole case rests whether we are talking about the prosecution or the defense.

Again, he didn't die because he couldn't breathe. His heart gave out whether that was due to the knee on the neck, the drugs, his agitated condition or all of those factors. He wasn't "killed" because he was a "big black man", whether there is wrongdoing to be found or not.
 
Seattle said:
He didn't die from being choked. The autopsy didn't show strangulations or lack of air. He had a heart attack.
The comment about a big black man is appropriate when you are 6'4" and when 3 officers couldn't get him into the back of the police car (otherwise none of this would have happened).

It doesn't matter who arrested him, my point was all of this took place as part of the arresting process. If they weren't being respectful they could have just beat him until he was stuffed in the police car.

I agree that the last few minutes is the problematic part and that's where the whole case rests whether we are talking about the prosecution or the defense.

Again, he didn't die because he couldn't breathe. His heart gave out whether that was due to the knee on the neck, the drugs, his agitated condition or all of those factors. He wasn't "killed" because he was a "big black man", whether there is wrongdoing to be found or not.
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Let's compare.

A white man shoots up a supermarket, he's walked out of the store in handcuffs.

A black man is suspected of using a $20 counterfeit note and he ends up dead under the knees of police officers.

Does that seem right to you?

But let's go back a bit.. Coroners all found that the kneeling on the neck contributed to his death. They certainly contributed when they a) failed to move when there was no pulse, b) failed to render medical assistance when there was no pulse for several minutes, c) refused to help the fire department attend to provide aid in resuscitating him when the ambulance had requested it directly and the police at the scene did not provide any information as to where the ambulance was headed or what state Floyd was in (the FD advised that this directly impeded their efforts)..

So who do you think is responsible?

Chauvin? He was in charge at the scene as he was the senior officer when he arrived. Even when the paramedics arrived and Floyd had been without a pulse for quite some time by this point and was completely unresponsive, he still refused to stop kneeling on his neck or to move or get up to allow the paramedics to start treating him.

Problematic does not even come close to describing the last few minutes, Seattle.

His defense are relying on the old racist trope of 'he was a big black man and was super strong and then tried to blame the small crowd with cameras who were asking them to check his pulse as he was clearly in medical distress. Literally. At the point of his death, he had been unresponsive for quite some time, was handcuffed and had 3 police officers holding him down, with one on his neck for over 7 minutes.

And as for your 'as part of the arresting process'... Floyd was in the police car. He was then dragged out on the other side of the car by Chauvin for reasons that are as yet unknown, where he was then thrown to the ground and then knelt on. Dispatch called a police sergeant immediately as it was happening, because she could tell that this was wrong and that something had to be done. Before any of this happened though, or as it was happening, one officer moved his police car, and then looked around and moved it forward so that one set of CCTV camera would not have a clear shot. He then gets out of the car and looks at the camera to make sure it was blocked by his car. Another camera captured Chauvin dragging Floyd out of the other side of the car, and then the rest was captured by bystanders, including a FD employee, who told them that Floyd was in trouble and to let her check his pulse, where they then threatened her with mace and she then begged them to check his pulse as he was losing consciousness. It took them several minutes to do so. And even after they did and found he had no pulse, they did not move off him, nor did they start CPR, which as police officers, they would be trained to do. One officer suggested rolling him onto his side, after feeling there was no pulse. Chauvin refused to budge and said no. The request was made twice after Floyd's heart stopped. Chauvin wouldn't even move to allow the paramedics to start treating him.

This isn't rocket science. If a police officer has a suspect in a car and handcuffed, you don't drag him down and pin him down until he dies and then try to claim he was resisting arrest. He'd been arrested. He was in the car and cuffed. All they had to do was close the door. There was no reason to drag him across the seat of the car and kneel on him and then tell him he can get up and get back in the car as he told them he couldn't breathe and to please get off his neck, which he could not do, because they would not let him move. And that is where the cruel sadism and torture comes into it.

He tells them he can't breathe. He uses words like "please" and begs them to get off his neck. They tell him it would all stop if he just got up and got in the car. He tries to move while begging them to please get off his neck and they pin him down even harder and Chauvin twists his knee just that little bit more to put more pressure on his neck while keeping his hands deep in his pocket as he looks around as though he's having a grand old time while the others tell Floyd he can simply get up and get in the car. This went on for minutes.

That is why even the 911 dispatch called their sergeant, because what they were doing was clearly wrong as she watched it unfold on the CCTV cameras around them.. despite their repeated attempts to block the CCTV camera from being able to film them.

So consider this. Would Floyd have died if they had not done that to him? The trauma they caused to his body caused his heart to stop. And then they failed to provide first aid and then deliberately hampered efforts to revive him.

I'll ask you again. A white man walks into a supermarket and shoots it up and he's walked out in handcuffs and helped onto a gurney because he was bleeding from his leg. Another white man commits a mass shooting, targeting Asians and women in particular and is calmly arrested and the police chief comes out and says he's just had a bad day.. Another white man shoots up a black church and when he is arrested, the officers bought him fast food.. A bunch of white people stage an insurrection in the country's Capitol Building, wanting to murder the Vice President and elected officials, where a police officer is murdered and they are allowed to leave and return home..

A black man is accused of using a fake $20 note and ends up dead under the knees of police officers arresting him and their actions were so alarming that police dispatch watching it happen on CCTV called in their supervisor..

Tell me again that he wasn't killed or allowed to die because he was black. You'll excuse me for simply not believing you.
 
Seattle said:
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he started saying that he couldn't breathe before anyone touched him. So if he really couldn't breathe then he got himself so agitated with all the drugs in his system that perhaps he would have died in the back of the police car.

If not, then he actually could breathe. He said I can't breathe 27 times. You can't do that and actually be breathing. So how is a cop supposed to believe that he can't breathe one minute and not believe it all the other times?

In the stress of the moment, it could certainly be argued by the defense, that this is too much second guessing by outsiders and that no one would take the job of police officer if that becomes the standard.

That's what I think they'll argue. I'm not saying that I know that he is innocent. I'm just trying not to second guess what happened without all the facts. He is not a sympathetic person so it's easier to just make a quick judgement. When everyone is sure that someone is guilty it just raises my interest at bit.:)

Just because there will be protests, talk about BLM, and because most of the news isn't being impartial doesn't make him more guilty. If he is guilty, it's because he kept the knee hold on too long and if that meets the requirements for one of these charges...then he is guilty. If not, he's not. I don't like cops in general so this isn't a easy position for me to take.

As an aside, even though I generally agree with MSNBC, and CBS I don't like that I can generally tell their "politics". This is dating me for sure, Walter Cronkite was boring and the news in general was boring when I was a kid. It was 30 minutes in the evening. You couldn't guess Walter Cronkite's political views.

Those days are gone. If that wasn't the case there would be more people on TV who weren't quite so sure regarding this case (and every other case). That's where I'm coming from.
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Okay, thx for clarifying. But, from a “reasonable doubt” perspective, it wouldn’t be hard to convince the jury that had Chauvin not reacted as he did, Floyd would still be alive. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.

The other part to this is that according to some bystanders/witnesses, once the ambulance arrived, Chauvin still didn’t remove his knee from Floyd’s neck. I believe not until the paramedic took Floyd’s pulse, and asked Chauvin to get up, did he remove his knee.

To any reasonable person listening to this testimony, that should alarm us that a police officer didn’t react with care when he realized that the person he was “subduing,” was under extreme stress and physical pain/discomfort.

You would have to assume that Floyd was “faking” his discomfort and Chauvin somehow knew this, to believe that Chauvin keeping his knee on Floyd’s neck for that long, was justified.

Chauvin has a history of police brutality - so this incident shouldn’t be surprising to us. The defense will have a tough time convincing a jury to have reasonable doubt about Chauvin’s conduct that day. At the very least, he brutalized a man because this was his pattern and thought he would (again) get away with it. I don’t think Chauvin cared if Floyd died, otherwise he would have stopped kneeing him in the neck when he realized that Floyd lost consciousness. He wasn’t moving and Chauvin was still remaining with his knee on Floyd’s neck. These are facts, not emotions. I would say that causing harm to someone and not caring if they die in the process, is just as bad as premeditating/planning to kill someone.

We should expect way better conduct from police officers.
 
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wegs said:
Okay, thx for clarifying. But, from a “reasonable doubt” perspective, it wouldn’t be hard to convince the jury that had Chauvin not reacted as he did, Floyd would still be alive. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.

The other part to this is that according to some bystanders/witnesses, once the ambulance arrived, Chauvin still didn’t remove his knee from Floyd’s neck. I believe not until the paramedic took Floyd’s pulse, and asked Chauvin to get up, did he remove his knee.

To any reasonable person listening to this testimony, that should alarm us that a police officer didn’t react with care when he realized that the person he was “subduing,” was under extreme stress and physical pain/discomfort.

You would have to assume that Floyd was “faking” his discomfort and Chauvin somehow knew this, to believe that Chauvin keeping his knee on Floyd’s neck for that long, was justified.

Chauvin has a history of police brutality - so this incident shouldn’t be surprising to us. The defense will have a tough time convincing a jury to have reasonable doubt about Chauvin’s conduct that day. At the very least, he brutalized a man because this was his pattern and thought he would (again) get away with it. I don’t think Chauvin cared if Floyd died, otherwise he would have stopped kneeing him in the neck when he realized that Floyd lost consciousness. He wasn’t moving and Chauvin was still remaining with his knee on Floyd’s neck. These are facts, not emotions. I would say that causing harm to someone and not caring if they die in the process, is just as bad as premeditating/planning to kill someone.

We should expect way better conduct from police officers.
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All good points. In the end it depends on the jury, the instructions giving to the jury and the cases presented by the prosecution and the defense.
 
Bells said:
Let's compare.

A white man shoots up a supermarket, he's walked out of the store in handcuffs.

A black man is suspected of using a $20 counterfeit note and he ends up dead under the knees of police officers.

Does that seem right to you?

But let's go back a bit.. Coroners all found that the kneeling on the neck contributed to his death. They certainly contributed when they a) failed to move when there was no pulse, b) failed to render medical assistance when there was no pulse for several minutes, c) refused to help the fire department attend to provide aid in resuscitating him when the ambulance had requested it directly and the police at the scene did not provide any information as to where the ambulance was headed or what state Floyd was in (the FD advised that this directly impeded their efforts)..

So who do you think is responsible?

Chauvin? He was in charge at the scene as he was the senior officer when he arrived. Even when the paramedics arrived and Floyd had been without a pulse for quite some time by this point and was completely unresponsive, he still refused to stop kneeling on his neck or to move or get up to allow the paramedics to start treating him.

Problematic does not even come close to describing the last few minutes, Seattle.

His defense are relying on the old racist trope of 'he was a big black man and was super strong and then tried to blame the small crowd with cameras who were asking them to check his pulse as he was clearly in medical distress. Literally. At the point of his death, he had been unresponsive for quite some time, was handcuffed and had 3 police officers holding him down, with one on his neck for over 7 minutes.

And as for your 'as part of the arresting process'... Floyd was in the police car. He was then dragged out on the other side of the car by Chauvin for reasons that are as yet unknown, where he was then thrown to the ground and then knelt on. Dispatch called a police sergeant immediately as it was happening, because she could tell that this was wrong and that something had to be done. Before any of this happened though, or as it was happening, one officer moved his police car, and then looked around and moved it forward so that one set of CCTV camera would not have a clear shot. He then gets out of the car and looks at the camera to make sure it was blocked by his car. Another camera captured Chauvin dragging Floyd out of the other side of the car, and then the rest was captured by bystanders, including a FD employee, who told them that Floyd was in trouble and to let her check his pulse, where they then threatened her with mace and she then begged them to check his pulse as he was losing consciousness. It took them several minutes to do so. And even after they did and found he had no pulse, they did not move off him, nor did they start CPR, which as police officers, they would be trained to do. One officer suggested rolling him onto his side, after feeling there was no pulse. Chauvin refused to budge and said no. The request was made twice after Floyd's heart stopped. Chauvin wouldn't even move to allow the paramedics to start treating him.

This isn't rocket science. If a police officer has a suspect in a car and handcuffed, you don't drag him down and pin him down until he dies and then try to claim he was resisting arrest. He'd been arrested. He was in the car and cuffed. All they had to do was close the door. There was no reason to drag him across the seat of the car and kneel on him and then tell him he can get up and get back in the car as he told them he couldn't breathe and to please get off his neck, which he could not do, because they would not let him move. And that is where the cruel sadism and torture comes into it.

He tells them he can't breathe. He uses words like "please" and begs them to get off his neck. They tell him it would all stop if he just got up and got in the car. He tries to move while begging them to please get off his neck and they pin him down even harder and Chauvin twists his knee just that little bit more to put more pressure on his neck while keeping his hands deep in his pocket as he looks around as though he's having a grand old time while the others tell Floyd he can simply get up and get in the car. This went on for minutes.

That is why even the 911 dispatch called their sergeant, because what they were doing was clearly wrong as she watched it unfold on the CCTV cameras around them.. despite their repeated attempts to block the CCTV camera from being able to film them.

So consider this. Would Floyd have died if they had not done that to him? The trauma they caused to his body caused his heart to stop. And then they failed to provide first aid and then deliberately hampered efforts to revive him.

I'll ask you again. A white man walks into a supermarket and shoots it up and he's walked out in handcuffs and helped onto a gurney because he was bleeding from his leg. Another white man commits a mass shooting, targeting Asians and women in particular and is calmly arrested and the police chief comes out and says he's just had a bad day.. Another white man shoots up a black church and when he is arrested, the officers bought him fast food.. A bunch of white people stage an insurrection in the country's Capitol Building, wanting to murder the Vice President and elected officials, where a police officer is murdered and they are allowed to leave and return home..

A black man is accused of using a fake $20 note and ends up dead under the knees of police officers arresting him and their actions were so alarming that police dispatch watching it happen on CCTV called in their supervisor..

Tell me again that he wasn't killed or allowed to die because he was black. You'll excuse me for simply not believing you.
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Are there black men who are walked out and escorted to jail. Sure. Are there white men who are shot resisting arrest and therefore killed? Sure.

If he wasn't on drugs would he have died? No. If he had gotten in the back of the police car would he has died? No. Chauvin can still be guilty of improper behavior without this being about black and white. It's too easy to pull the race card when all the other circumstances greatly outweigh skin color.

It's not pertinent that he was arrested for a fake 20 dollar bill. It is not logical to compare this situation to a white guy arrested for a fake 20 dollar bill (for instance). The problems frequently occurs because of struggling with police and that doesn't turn out well, usually, whether you are white or black.
 
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Hmm.. So my actual entire response, along with links, videos and whatnot, was nuked by something after I posted it and instead it's selected random sentences and compressed them down to being that incomprehensible few paragraphs above.

Checking my history to see if I can retrieve it and the entire thread's page 2 disappears.

For lack of a better term..

For fuck's sake!
 
Vociferous said:
Where in those laws are you reading anything about what the victim did?
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The victim died, and he's not on trial.

Did Chauvin "intentionally kill"?
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From the evidence presented so far, I'd say he didn't ''set out'' to kill Floyd, but by not removing his knee from his neck when Floyd was under physical duress, it could mean that Chauvin didn't care if Floyd died. Not saying that he did or didn't care if Floyd died, but it seems unusual that a trained police officer wouldn't know when to stop hurting someone who was clearly under physical strain/pain.

What's the motive?
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Not quite sure, but it could range from racism to wanting to send a message in the community? Chauvin has a history of this behavior, so he could simply be a sociopath, with no conscience. I'm not sure, we have to see what comes out in the trial.

Did he "unintentionally kill while committing other offenses"?
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Maybe.

What other offenses?
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I don't understand the question.

Was the act he was trained to perform as a cop "eminently dangerous"?
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It seems again from the evidence, that the length of time that he had his knee on Floyd's neck was the problem, not necessarily that he/they used that type of force to subdue Floyd. (if that's what you want to call it)

Why do they train cops to use it, and why hasn't there been any issue with it until now?
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Chauvin has had multiple reports against him for police brutality.

Didn't the whole video show Chauvin tried to accommodate Floyd in every way possible?
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Accomodate? Um, not quite. Chauvin did the opposite of ''accomodating'' Floyd. Even after the ambulance arrived, Chauvin still kept his knee on the Floyd's neck.

He offered to turn the AC on, leave the window down, stay with him, and laid him on the ground like he asked.
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I haven't heard/read this. But, if this is true, and Floyd still complained of not being able to breathe, perhaps something else was happening to him physically and trained police officers should be calling for help, not making matters worse.

All while Floyd resisted, saying he couldn't breathe as soon as he was in cuffs.
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So, why didn't Chauvin call for an ambulance? All of this could have been avoided, if Chauvin looked at the issue from the standpoint of safety, and not his ego.

They are also trained to perform that exact act and be vigilant in potentially dangerous situations, like a gathering crowd of agitated people.
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Considering that four police officers struggled to arrest one unarmed man, perhaps it's not that far fetched to believe that this crew could have been afraid of the crowd, but this is actually coming out in the trial now, and witnesses are sharing that the crowd was upset, but not threatening the officers at all.

That is not a choke hold, nor meant to cut off air supply. If it were, he would have lost consciousness much earlier and they would have loaded him in the car without resistance. So it sounds like you would have preferred they use an actual choke hold.
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I would prefer that they called an ambulance when Floyd started complaining that he couldn't breathe, and that complaint continued. I'm surprised actually by all I've learned about this ''choke hold'' business. Didn't realize this was a go-to method when dealing with people resisting arrest.
 
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Bells said:
Oh.. My post was apparently "repaired"..

Ookay then..
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Hmm. Were you on your phone when you noticed the issue yesterday and now you’re on a laptop/desktop? Sometimes things appear differently on my phone. :?
 
Mod Hat — Brief user notes

wegs said:
Were you on your phone when you noticed the issue yesterday and now you’re on a laptop/desktop? Sometimes things appear differently on my phone
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It has to do with this particular forum software. The dollar sign ($) is the Tex tag, so when two occur within a post, the system tries to activate Tex. Seattle's whole-post quote (#25↑) shows the result; the full text of Bells' post is still in the quote, but the Tex field erases it. The way around this problem is to isolate the dollar signs within other tags:

Code: 
… accused of using a fake [i]$[/i]20 note …

Missing content and certain odd, bold-italic text lacking proper spacing are the symptoms. My laptop even exhibits a page execution symptom while the system attempts to render Tex, still occurring because I haven't adjusted the text in the quoted version of the post. A larger consideration of forum software is probably best reserved for another discussion, but the workaround for this is pretty straightforward. Well, it's cumbersome on a touchscreen keyboard, but it's what we have. And it's easy to forget.
 
Seattle said:
It's not pertinent that he was arrested for a fake 20 dollar bill. It is not logical to compare this situation to a white guy arrested for a fake 20 dollar bill (for instance). The problems frequently occurs because of struggling with police and that doesn't turn out well, usually, whether you are white or black.
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Nine minutes, twenty-nine seconds.
 
Tiassa said:
Mod Hat — Brief user notes



It has to do with this particular forum software. The dollar sign ($) is the Tex tag, so when two occur within a post, the system tries to activate Tex. Seattle's whole-post quote (#25↑) shows the result; the full text of Bells' post is still in the quote, but the Tex field erases it. The way around this problem is to isolate the dollar signs within other tags:

Code: 
… accused of using a fake [i]$[/i]20 note …

Missing content and certain odd, bold-italic text lacking proper spacing are the symptoms. My laptop even exhibits a page execution symptom while the system attempts to render Tex, still occurring because I haven't adjusted the text in the quoted version of the post. A larger consideration of forum software is probably best reserved for another discussion, but the workaround for this is pretty straightforward. Well, it's cumbersome on a touchscreen keyboard, but it's what we have. And it's easy to forget.
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Ah, gotcha - that’s good to know. Thanks for explaining.
 
Watching a bit of the trial this afternoon and the Defense is questioning a witness outside of the jury being present. (Judge dismissed the jury for the day.) Why wouldn’t the judge require the jury to be present for all witness testimony?
 
With what has been presented so far as evidence in the trial, I’m leaning towards second degree murder. The Defense is trying to spin Chauvin’s motives but it doesn’t seem reasonable.
The sergeant who was on duty that day, testified that Chauvin should have stopped applying force to Floyd once it appeared Floyd was cuffed, on the ground and not resisting. And that seems to be their police procedure.

Anyone watching some of the trial care to share their thoughts?
 
Seattle said:
I haven't watched the trial. Has the defense even put on their case yet?
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They’ve been cross-examining the prosecution’s witnesses. They’re giving glimpses in how they’re trying to spin things.
 
why is a gun used by a police officer not classed as a deadly threat ?
when a police officer cant be blamed for killing someone intentionally with a gun ?

deadly force by authority control
he had control & authority
and used lethal force
the force applied caused death

so the force was deadly and so the use of force was deadly force

this is part of the immoral broken system that police can use deadly force and not be accountable for its lethality
so they define authority as being not accountable for the effect of the weapon
this seems to be a moral American issue that is avoided over and over again
(my suspicion is this is used as a social engineering tool to control the right wing conservatives
[win their votes & blind obedient support of tyranny]
& maintain minority power over the democratic majority
; installing a class system as the moral fascist)

denying medical assistance is a completely different level which given the victims inability to be a threat means he has denied the right to life

denial of the right to life should be a life sentence with no parole for a licensed authority whos job is to serve & protect

but America has different morals to many other 1st world countrys

if i was going to guess
i would say involuntary manslaughter & denial of right to life
because there is no ability to scientifically prove he intended to kill George

justifiable reasonable doubt to use deadly force against someone holding a cell phone
so justifiable homicide
but a civilian has no such right ?

why cant a civilian use deadly force against a police officer pointing a gun at them ?

the system is broken
 
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Read an article today mentioning that defense lawyers sometimes don't believe in their clients' innocence, yet still defend their cases, attempting to aim for acquittals. And there's apparently a difference between ''actual facts'' and ''legal facts.'' Hmm. I'm wondering if Eric Nelson, Chauvin's attorney, feels Chauvin is guilty - and if so, of manslaughter or murder? It would be tough to defend someone I didn't believe was genuinely ''innocent'' of what they're being accused of.
 
wegs said:
Read an article today mentioning that defense lawyers sometimes don't believe in their clients' innocence, yet still defend their cases, attempting to aim for acquittals. And there's apparently a difference between ''actual facts'' and ''legal facts.'' Hmm. I'm wondering if Eric Nelson, Chauvin's attorney, feels Chauvin is guilty - and if so, of manslaughter or murder? It would be tough to defend someone I didn't believe was genuinely ''innocent'' of what they're being accused of.
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Their job is to put on the best defense that they can. It's not necessary that they believe in their clients innocence. Sometimes they do but most of the time a criminal defense attorney doesn't have that luxury.

I doubt if there is anyone that feels that Chauvin did a great job.
 
Seattle said:
Their job is to put on the best defense that they can. It's not necessary that they believe in their clients innocence. Sometimes they do but most of the time a criminal defense attorney doesn't have that luxury.
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Well, they can always turn down cases but I think that he (Nelson) was selected from a group of like twelve attorneys that were hired by the police union (or whatever) that Chauvin was a part of when active.

I doubt if there is anyone that feels that Chauvin did a great job.
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If you ever look at Twitter, you’d be surprised by how some are defending Chauvin. ~shrug~
 
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