2016 Republican Presidential Clown Car Begins!

The Republican Party has not changed in any significant way since the final purge of the Gingrich organizational shaping up. That was 1994. Anyone who voted for W&Cheney in 2004 can by the same "reasoning" - and very well may - vote for Trump in 2016.

The man is calling for torture! This is insane!!! AFAIC at this point, the R party is no better than the KKK.
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W&Cheney didn't just call for it, they implemented it - set up an entire chain of black site prisons in which torture was routine and bureaucratically managed, some with special rooms devoted to enabling the latest techniques (individual control of extremes of temperature and light, restraint points in the floors and ceilings convenient for stress positions, floor drains for easy cleanup of vomit and blood and involuntary defecation, soundproofing, etc - expensive, but worth it over time).

And they won re-election. Easily.

There is nothing new about Trump except his vulgarity of expression. He's Reagan, with bad manners.
 
iceaura said:
The Republican Party has not changed in any significant way since the final purge of the Gingrich organizational shaping up. That was 1994. Anyone who voted for W&Cheney in 2004 can by the same "reasoning" - and very well may - vote for Trump in 2016.

W&Cheney didn't just call for it, they implemented it - set up an entire chain of black site prisons in which torture was routine and bureaucratically managed, some with special rooms devoted to enabling the latest techniques (individual control of extremes of temperature and light, restraint points in the floors and ceilings convenient for stress positions, floor drains for easy cleanup of vomit and blood and involuntary defecation, soundproofing, etc - expensive, but worth it over time).

And they won re-election. Easily.

There is nothing new about Trump except his vulgarity of expression. He's Reagan, with bad manners.
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We banned waterboarding during the civil war and again after the Bush admin. No one in the US has ever run on a Presidential platform that promotes the use of torture. To whatever extent torture beyond waterboarding has been used, it was illegal and those people could be prosecuted for war crimes. Trump wants to make that legal. There IS a difference. This is unprecedented.

We would be knowingly adopting the tactics of dictators and despots.
 
ivan said:
- - To whatever extent torture beyond waterboarding has been used, it was illegal and those people could be prosecuted for war crimes. Trump wants to make that legal. There IS a difference. This is unprecedented.
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W&Cheney not only called for, but implemented, routine torture of "enemy combatants" as an official program. That was presented as legal. The officials in charge were never even subpoenaed, deposed, or faced with prosecution of any kind. Pictures of sensory deprived detainees held in stress positions in hot sunlight were published on the front covers of major magazines such as Time - this did not result in political repercussions, even, let alone investigations and prosecutions. The major media figures and intellectuals of the Republican Party defended the program, and regarded it as restrained - not "really torture". W won re-election by an increased majority.

btw: why "beyond waterboarding"? Waterboarding is sufficient - if it is employed, torture is being employed.

Meanwhile, not only is waterboarding a severe form of torture, but the US torture program involved many techniques of equal and even greater severity - and that is only what the US did itself: the practice of outsourcing torture to various willing governments (Syria, for example) brought their favorite techniques into play as well, under US auspices.
Ivan said:
We would be knowingly adopting the tactics of dictators and despots.
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We should probably stop doing that, eh? People have been trying to get the US to pull back from its use of such tactics for years now.
 
iceaura said:
W&Cheney not only called for, but implemented, routine torture of "enemy combatants" as an official program. That was presented as legal. The officials in charge were never even subpoenaed, deposed, or faced with prosecution of any kind.
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I agree that Cheney was out of control and justice was never served. I believe he and others are war criminals who got away with it. But show me where he ran on that platform. Show me a direct quote from the campaign.

Americans have never knowingly elected despots. If you disagree, show me the proof and not just a bunch of heated rhetoric. You are starting to sound like a nut and you appear to so immersed in hyperbole that you can't understand the significance of the choice being made this year.
 
I'm just sorry that America can't get a better choice as to who is running for the President. It seems that the candidates Americans are given aren't very trustworthy. I'm ashamed that America can't find people who would be better candidates for presidency other than what they are being given.
 
cosmictraveler said:
I'm just sorry that America can't get a better choice as to who is running for the President. It seems that the candidates Americans are given aren't very trustworthy. I'm ashamed that America can't find people who would be better candidates for presidency other than what they are being given.
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Americans have been saying that for many decades now.
 
Ivan said:
I agree that Cheney was out of control and justice was never served. I believe he and others are war criminals who got away with it. But show me where he ran on that platform. Show me a direct quote from the campaign.
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W&Cheney had Rush Limbaugh et al to do that for them. Recall that the basic torture prison setup and what was done in them was public information in 2004, months before W&Cheney's re-election via increased majority, when the Abu Ghraib photos hit the press and removed whatever remaining denial of common knowledge was still credible. And of course the lack of prosecution and so forth is revealing - the matter of impeachment never came up even after 2006, with Democratic committee control in the Senate.
Ivan said:
Americans have never knowingly elected despots
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Or racists or corporate stooges. Right?

What Americans "know" and what they don't is an interesting topic.
 
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Trump has said he will be announcing his running mate within the next few days. So who will he select? Who is willing to run as his running mate? I think it boils down to one of 3 people; Christie, Pence, or Gingrich. I’m guessing Christie, though I can see why he would choose Gingrich or Pence. It will be interesting.
 
Fox News has suspended Gingrich's contract. Given we have seen this before, I'd say Gingrich is probably The Donald's choice for VP. While Trump loves loyalty in his staff, apparently Christie has more baggage than just Bridgegate. Gingridge hasn't been as loyal, but he does bring Washington experience which Trump has said he wants. And for the VP slot, I'm sure Gingrich would sell his mother to the Devil just to run as the party's VP nominee. The nomination will revive his failing career. He will be able to sell more books, paraphernalia, and speeches even if he loses the fall election.
 
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Nominating Gingrich would be good news - it might mean the Republican Party's thrown in the towel on the national, and doesn't want to lose anyone with a future or a secure seat Stateside. Gingrich is disposable. (And, from Trump's pov, good insurance - he's not popular in the Party).
 
The Religious Liberty of Jews.. Trump and Bachmann Style..

Former Minnesota Rep. Michelle Bachmann (R) returned to the spotlight this week with an unusual definition of “religious liberty.” Apparently, it’s a land where people of all faiths can come together and say “Merry Christmas.”

Over the weekend, Bachmann told right-wing radio host Jan Markell that Donald Trump “gets and understands religious liberty.” To show how much Trump “gets and understands” it, Bachmann shared an anecdote she said came from a meeting with the reality-TV-star-turned-GOP-presidential-candidate.

“He even said, ‘I don’t understand, when I was growing up, everybody said Merry Christmas. Even my Jews would say Merry Christmas,’” she explained. “’New York City, there are a lot of Jews, and they would even say Merry Christmas. Why can’t we even say Merry Christmas anymore?’” ​


Even 'his Jews'...

Goddess grant..

It seems that according to Bachmann and Trump, religious liberty is about when Trump's Jews say Merry Christmas. My eyes watered just typing that.

Bachmann followed it up with an insight into Trump's common sense (or lack of) and sensibilities..

Bachmann also said Trump had “1950s sensibilities” and “1950s common sense,” and warned that Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton would bring “certain destruction” and “catastrophic decline” and a “godless United States that will walk into certain catastrophe.” ​


1950's.. The days of the Jim Crow laws.. Racial segregation and horrific human rights abuses.

Because these are ideals to aspire to in regards to "sensibilities" and "common sense"?
 
Ahead of GOP Convention, Cleveland Officials Affirm Protesters May Carry Guns
But water guns, toy guns, knives, aerosol cans, rope, tennis balls are barred

...​

Cleveland has banned a wide array of items inside a broad zone in downtown Cleveland around the convention site, including water guns, toy guns, knives, aerosol cans, rope, tennis balls and others. But because of Ohio’s open carry laws, protesters who legally own a firearm will be allowed to carry it near the convention center.
​
I can't seem to think of anything to add here...
 
Well, Donald Trump Is Mad ... and He's a Man


Click for male supremacy. (No, really, maybe I should attach a trigger warning.)​

Bells said:
1950's.. The days of the Jim Crow laws.. Racial segregation and horrific human rights abuses.

Because these are ideals to aspire to in regards to "sensibilities" and "common sense"?
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It's Bachmann.

And Trump.

By the way, did the article even mention Bachmann is Trump's campaign advisor on evangelical issues? I mean, did I miss something?

So ... note the point about Hillary Clinton.

Those sensibilities? That common sense?

She's not talking, in that moment, about Jim Crow or Jews.

In the 1950s, nobody recognized what was about to happen.

Well, that's not true. Just, none with Ms. Bachmann's, or Mr. Trump's (ahem!) "sensibilities".

And as I understand it, they're still not over the slight.

There's more going on; the court in New York is going to have to rule at some point on the Jane Doe complaint, including a petition to toll the statute of limitations. Hell, can you imagine if the court says yes?

I don't know; it just makes it seem all the more "just about on schedule" that Michele Bachmann should be raising the spectre of feminism and praising Donald Trump's "1950s sensibilities" and "common sense".
 
The pundits are now pushing Pence. Pence would be an unusual selection for The Donald. The two are like night and day. But, according to the pundits, The Donald's kids are reportedly pushing for Pence. Pence makes some sense in that Pence is a more traditional kind of guy. But Pence is not without baggage. His term as governor has been troubled, and Pence isn't the kind of choice The Donald would typically make. If true, this might be an attempt to secure The Donald's nomination by thwarting the rules change movement.

The IndyStar is now confirming Pence is the Donald's running mate choice.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/07/14/report-pence-trumps-vp-pick/87075866/
 
To summarize Gary Legum↱ on Gov. Mike Pence (R-IN) as a vice presidential nominee:

(1) Immigration reform exposure on his right flank.

(2) Limited appeal of Pence's evangelical conservative rhetoric.

(3) "He has a reputation of being not very bright."​

Yeah, I think we have Donald Trump's running mate.

Legum did note Pence's insider career, participation in the Republican Study Committee, and "nearly non-existent personality" play to his favor at least in terms of Trump's pick.

Sounds about right, actually.
____________________

Notes:

Legum, Gary. "Pence for Trump VP? Three reasons why that could be a huge mistake". Salon. 12 July 2016. Salon.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29I8Fna
 
Tiassa said:
To summarize Gary Legum↱ on Gov. Mike Pence (R-IN) as a vice presidential nominee:

(1) Immigration reform exposure on his right flank.

(2) Limited appeal of Pence's evangelical conservative rhetoric.

(3) "He has a reputation of being not very bright."​

Yeah, I think we have Donald Trump's running mate.

Legum did note Pence's insider career, participation in the Republican Study Committee, and "nearly non-existent personality" play to his favor at least in terms of Trump's pick.

Sounds about right, actually.
____________________

Notes:

Legum, Gary. "Pence for Trump VP? Three reasons why that could be a huge mistake". Salon. 12 July 2016. Salon.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29I8Fna
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This is such a "non Trump" choice, it's shocking. Pence's personality isn't anything like that of Trump's. I can only surmise that this was a choice to show Republicans Trump really isn't that crazy and perhaps influence the rules committee which could undermine his candidacy. I would have expected someone more like Christie. The two are different sides of the same coin. But Pence, he is different animal.
 
(insert title here)

​

Joepistole said:
Pence's personality isn't anything like that of Trump's. I can only surmise that this was a choice to show Republicans Trump really isn't that crazy and perhaps influence the rules committee which could undermine his candidacy.
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Well, yes, but I would propose you're overlooking an important criterion I skipped because I was rushing out the door, and ... er ... ah ... I thought it was obvious:

An experienced second-in-command should allay concerns within the party about Trump's own lack of experience and familiarity with Washington's byzantine legislative processes and legions of power brokers who can scuttle a new president's agenda before it gets started. The sober, nearly non-existent personality that makes him resemble the stern high-school principal in a John Hughes movie will seem like a calming counterpoint to Trump's manic style.

That same lack of colorfulness ensures Pence won't outshine Trump, which would be an unacceptable deal-breaker to the orange-tinted candidate. There is only room for one name on the marquee of “The Trump Show,” and it isn't Mike Pence.

(Legum↱)​

That last actually holds some punch. In addition to a pretense of sober experience in the vice presidential candidate, it would seem prerequisite that Donald Trump shall not be upstaged.

Christie is a walking gaffe machine, and a turducken of scandal. Those elements will demand a lot of attention ... that Donald Trump thinks should be given to Donald Trump.

Meanwhile, Indiana just became extraordinarily fascinating:

Under Indiana law, the committee has 30 days following the post-primary withdrawal of a statewide candidate to select another individual to run for the office.

Among those reportedly interested in campaigning for governor if Pence withdraws are House Speaker Brian Bosma, R-Indianapolis; Lt. Gov. Eric Holcomb; Indianapolis U.S. Rep. Todd Rokita, a Munster native; state Sen. Jim Merritt, R-Indianapolis; former Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard; and [Republican State Committee Chairman Jeff] Cardwell, a former member of the Indianapolis City-County Council.

However, just as Pence can’t run for two offices at once, neither can any other officeholder up for election this year, including Bosma, Holcomb and Rokita.

According to the secretary of state’s office, they also would have to withdraw from the ballot by July 15 to be eligible for the Republican gubernatorial nomination.

It’s less risky than it sounds.

(Carden↱)​

The way this is going to work out, Mr. Holcomb, for instance, could easily be returned to the ballot; if the Party works together, they should be able to figure this out.

Pence could even try to manipulate the outcome by immediately resigning as governor once Trump picks him for vice president.

That would elevate Holcomb to the state’s top job and make it seemingly impossible for the Indiana Republican Party, which Holcomb led from 2010 to 2013, to deny him the nomination.​

Or they could do that. Former Indiana House Speaker John Gregg, the Democratic candidate, trails Pence by all of four points with nearly a quarter of the votes elsewhere. It's a bit hard to read Indiana right now. To the one, this is the state in which Republicans unseated Richard Lugar, apparently in favor of Democrat Joe Donnelly. Oh, right. Mourdock. Fuck. Hell were they thinking?

To the one it didn't work out too well. To the other, outside the Hoosier State the dossier on the appointed Lieutenant Governor is thin. It's easy enough to presume the Republican can defeat the Democrat in Indiana, but Republicans would probably like to have Mr. Lugar back, please; it is unclear how Mr. Pence's negative approval rating↱ is affecting Hoosier Republicans generally; and this is the Year of the Trump, in which conventional wisdom is generally impossible compared to its usual miserable lack of wisdom.

But Indiana, always at least a bit interesting come election season, just got promoted to officially fascinating.
____________________

Notes:

Carden, Dan. "VP Pence could set Indiana GOP dominoes tumbling ". The Times. 14 July 2016. NWITimes.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29HKDqJ

Legum, Gary. "Pence for Trump VP? Three reasons why that could be a huge mistake". Salon. 12 July 2016. Salon.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29I8Fna

Matthews, Christine. "New Poll Shows Mike Pence in Serious Trouble". Indiana Talks. 19 May 2016. IndianaTalks.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/2a2KZMh
 
Tiassa said:
(insert title here)

​



Well, yes, but I would propose you're overlooking an important criterion I skipped because I was rushing out the door, and ... er ... ah ... I thought it was obvious:

An experienced second-in-command should allay concerns within the party about Trump's own lack of experience and familiarity with Washington's byzantine legislative processes and legions of power brokers who can scuttle a new president's agenda before it gets started. The sober, nearly non-existent personality that makes him resemble the stern high-school principal in a John Hughes movie will seem like a calming counterpoint to Trump's manic style.

That same lack of colorfulness ensures Pence won't outshine Trump, which would be an unacceptable deal-breaker to the orange-tinted candidate. There is only room for one name on the marquee of “The Trump Show,” and it isn't Mike Pence.

(Legum↱)​

That last actually holds some punch. In addition to a pretense of sober experience in the vice presidential candidate, it would seem prerequisite that Donald Trump shall not be upstaged.

Christie is a walking gaffe machine, and a turducken of scandal. Those elements will demand a lot of attention ... that Donald Trump thinks should be given to Donald Trump.

Meanwhile, Indiana just became extraordinarily fascinating:

Under Indiana law, the committee has 30 days following the post-primary withdrawal of a statewide candidate to select another individual to run for the office.

Among those reportedly interested in campaigning for governor if Pence withdraws are House Speaker Brian Bosma, R-Indianapolis; Lt. Gov. Eric Holcomb; Indianapolis U.S. Rep. Todd Rokita, a Munster native; state Sen. Jim Merritt, R-Indianapolis; former Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard; and [Republican State Committee Chairman Jeff] Cardwell, a former member of the Indianapolis City-County Council.

However, just as Pence can’t run for two offices at once, neither can any other officeholder up for election this year, including Bosma, Holcomb and Rokita.

According to the secretary of state’s office, they also would have to withdraw from the ballot by July 15 to be eligible for the Republican gubernatorial nomination.

It’s less risky than it sounds.

(Carden↱)​

The way this is going to work out, Mr. Holcomb, for instance, could easily be returned to the ballot; if the Party works together, they should be able to figure this out.

Pence could even try to manipulate the outcome by immediately resigning as governor once Trump picks him for vice president.

That would elevate Holcomb to the state’s top job and make it seemingly impossible for the Indiana Republican Party, which Holcomb led from 2010 to 2013, to deny him the nomination.​

Or they could do that. Former Indiana House Speaker John Gregg, the Democratic candidate, trails Pence by all of four points with nearly a quarter of the votes elsewhere. It's a bit hard to read Indiana right now. To the one, this is the state in which Republicans unseated Richard Lugar, apparently in favor of Democrat Joe Donnelly. Oh, right. Mourdock. Fuck. Hell were they thinking?

To the one it didn't work out too well. To the other, outside the Hoosier State the dossier on the appointed Lieutenant Governor is thin. It's easy enough to presume the Republican can defeat the Democrat in Indiana, but Republicans would probably like to have Mr. Lugar back, please; it is unclear how Mr. Pence's negative approval rating↱ is affecting Hoosier Republicans generally; and this is the Year of the Trump, in which conventional wisdom is generally impossible compared to its usual miserable lack of wisdom.

But Indiana, always at least a bit interesting come election season, just got promoted to officially fascinating.
____________________

Notes:

Carden, Dan. "VP Pence could set Indiana GOP dominoes tumbling ". The Times. 14 July 2016. NWITimes.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29HKDqJ

Legum, Gary. "Pence for Trump VP? Three reasons why that could be a huge mistake". Salon. 12 July 2016. Salon.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/29I8Fna

Matthews, Christine. "New Poll Shows Mike Pence in Serious Trouble". Indiana Talks. 19 May 2016. IndianaTalks.com. 14 July 2016. http://bit.ly/2a2KZMh
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I think you are treating Trump like a traditional candidate. But Trump is anything but a traditional candidate. The nontraditional, anti-establishment gig is Trump's big shtick. That's why it is so surprising to see him act like a traditional candidate.

Now the question is will it help him in the fall election? From now on will Trump act like a traditional candidate or will he revert to form? I can't see Trump becoming a more traditional candidate, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Stranger things have happened. Thus far, the nontraditional approach has worked for Trump. The Republican base loves it.
 
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