There are some people that think that the geneology of the human race given
in the bible is a partial geneology, and this could make the timing of
Noah's flood go back much further into history, if that is true. There are
good reasons to think that Noah's flood goes back much further into the
past. The archeological evidence for the history of man does go back farther
than the bible would say, if the geneology was all there. The other reason
is that the bible uses the word begat.
American heritage dictionary
Definition of begat:
Begat is a rare form of the word beget.
Beget: - To father, sire.
Definition of sire - n. - a father or forefather; tr.v. to beget
Definition of forefather, - An ancestor

A sire used as a noun can be a forefather; the tr.v. definition is to beget.
So,from the dictionary, begat can refer to a forefather or ancestor causing
someone to be born. That means in the bible geneology where it says that
someone begat someone else, it could mean that the person that begat him
could be a forefather many generations before him. That means the geneology
in the bible can be a partial geneology, and all of the names in the family
trees are not listed. That could mean that the time of Adam and Eve and
Noah's flood could be much farther back in history and would more closely
match archeological findings about the age of man.

Also, the Hebrew usage of the word son, can mean son, or grandson, or great
grandson, or great great great grandson or descendant many generations
later.
[Example: Jesus is called the son of David. Jesus is a descendant of David
many generations later.] If you look at the biblical account of the
descendants of the sons of Noah, it uses the word sons, several times. Every
where it says sons, according to Hebrew usage, it could be referring to
descendants many generations later. That would put the time of Noah's flood
much farther back in history and it would more closely match archeological
findings about the age of man.

Genesis 9:19 These [are] the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole
earth overspread.

Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan,
and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Genesis 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

Genesis 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and
Dodanim.

Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their
lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and
Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the
earth.

Genesis 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said,
Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and
Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Mitochondrial DNA, is a form of DNA that gets more diversified with time.
Studies of the mitochodrial DNA, have shown that at one time in the history
of mankind, the human race went down to just a few families, because of some
disaster that caused the population to go down rapidly. I saw something
about this on the discovery channel. I think this bottleneck in the human
population, could have been caused by Noah's flood.
They gave an estimate of how far back this happened, but I forgot how long
it was. [It could have been something like 80,000 years ago; I am not sure.]
I searched on the internet for it and did find the article about it, but the
link to it was a dead link.
Pääbo, S., Gifford, J.A., and Wilson, A.C.: Mitochondrial DNA sequences from
a 7000-year-old brain. Nucl. Acids Res. 16(20): 9775-9787 (1988)

Pääbo, S., Gifford, JA, and Wilson, AC: Mitochondrial DNA sequences from a
... C., and Pääbo, S.: Paternal and maternal DNA lineages reveal a
bottleneck in ...
email.eva.mpg.de/~paabo/files/public.html [Found on Google]
paabo@eva.mpg.de

The guy at that email address could tell you how far back it was that the
DNA showed that the human race went back to just a few families.
I think that around that time might be the best guess as to how far back
Noah's flood happened in history.

*shrug*
folks should stop staring at the past, and start looking to where they are headed....in my humble opinion.

A couple of observations about this very interesting summary.

Assuming "begat" allows for multiple generations and the written lineage might just pick out prominent individuals to mention (unless specific evidencs of a direct father:son relationship is included), how does one best deal with the formula:

when so and so was (age) he begat so and so and after that lived (number of years)?

That question aside, the allowance for multiple generations with each begat does facilitate solving the timing-of-the-flood problem.

I read on another website (saved on a different computer) that the Hebrew bible includes an insert indicating this between most of the patriarchs.

Then, assuming that the line of Adam via Seth is a special line that is being preserved in a particular geographic area affected by a cataclysmic flood (e.g. as might have occurred in a coastal or intermountain region toward the end of the last ice age) narrowing to a small gene pool does create a stong statistical possibility of losing a dominant gene, e.g. the gene(s) associated with remarkably longevity. This could have been something as simple as a shortened telomere in the descendants of Noah or a change in telomerase activity.
Thanks for your summary.
j1r2c3

A couple of observations about this very interesting summary.

Assuming "begat" allows for multiple generations and the written lineage might just pick out prominent individuals to mention (unless specific evidencs of a direct father:son relationship is included), how does one best deal with the formula:

when so and so was (age) he begat so and so and after that lived (number of years)?

That question aside, the allowance for multiple generations with each begat does facilitate solving the timing-of-the-flood problem.

I read on another website (saved on a different computer) that the Hebrew bible includes an insert indicating this between most of the patriarchs.

Then, assuming that the line of Adam via Seth is a special line that is being preserved in a particular geographic area affected by a cataclysmic flood (e.g. as might have occurred in a coastal or intermountain region toward the end of the last ice age) narrowing to a small gene pool does create a stong statistical possibility of losing a dominant gene, e.g. the gene(s) associated with remarkably longevity. This could have been something as simple as a shortened telomere in the descendants of Noah or a change in telomerase activity.
Thanks for your summary.
j1r2c3

*************
M*W: Please explain more about the shortened telomere. Is it still found today? What reason do you imply that gave some of us the shortened telemere? Is the telemere really the fountain of youth?

Your vague use of the world 'begat' in no way supports this fairytale. At no point in Earth's history did water cover all of the Earth's surface.

It's true that the human population went down to several thousand 70,000 years ago. But that was due to a volcanic winter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/166869.stm)

Please stop scraping the barrel of science to try and support your idiotic fantasies.

Mitochondrial DNA, is a form of DNA that gets more diversified with time.
Studies of the mitochodrial DNA, have shown that at one time in the history
of mankind, the human race went down to just a few families, because of some
disaster that caused the population to go down rapidly. I saw something
about this on the discovery channel. I think this bottleneck in the human
population, could have been caused by Noah's flood.
They gave an estimate of how far back this happened, but I forgot how long
it was. [It could have been something like 80,000 years ago; I am not sure.]
I searched on the internet for it and did find the article about it, but the
link to it was a dead link.
Pääbo, S., Gifford, J.A., and Wilson, A.C.: Mitochondrial DNA sequences from
a 7000-year-old brain. Nucl. Acids Res. 16(20): 9775-9787 (1988)

What utter nonsense. Had you actually bothered to read the article in Nucleic Acids Research, you might have noticed that Paabo, Gifford and Wilson made NO claims that had anything to do with the above poppycock. What they did was examine the DNA from a cranial find in Florida peat bog that once belonged to an ancient human that lived about 8,000 years ago. The significance of the find was that the mitachondrial DNA was of a lineage not of earlier finds.

They said absolutely nothing of the Noachian flood myth. Moreover, the culture they studied was not Sumerian, but of a population that lived half a world away. Sumeria was, of course, is one source of the Noachian myth, before the Hebrew authors "borrowed" the story.

What we have in this thread, however, is just another religious nutter cherry-picking science to "prove" his superstitions. The amazing thing is, believers that are this devout will dismiss that bit of science that is suggestive that their myths are mythic, but they're still willing to accept the bits that support their superstitions or, in this case, manipulate existing scientific data to support them.

The guy at that email address could tell you how far back it was that the
DNA showed that the human race went back to just a few families.
I think that around that time might be the best guess as to how far back
Noah's flood happened in history.

Why not just get the journal and read what "that guy" really said? In addition, "noah's flood" was a story stolen by the Hebrews from much earlier cultures who were polytheistic. It simply did not occur. Science demonstrates this fact very clearly.

SW said:

They said absolutely nothing of the Noachian flood myth.

What do you think about the Black Sea flood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Flood) about 8,000 years go?


Main Entry: myth
Pronunciation: 'mith
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek mythos
1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY
2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism -- Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion
3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4 : the whole body of myths

Taken as a whole, perhaps "myth" is a pretty good description of Noah's flood. It's not necessarily based on a false premise, though a worldwide scope of a flood is not supported by known scientific evidence at this time.

What do you think about the Black Sea flood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Flood) about 8,000 years go?


You asked me that same question in another thread. I'll give you the same answer: see this paper which reviews the subject (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans/noahsflood.htm).

You asked me that same question in another thread. I'll give you the same answer: see this paper which reviews the subject (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans/noahsflood.htm).


Yeah, I remember that post. You have a paper on it. What do you personally think about it?

By the way, Moses wrote the book of Genesis, and he was well educated in Egypt as one of the Pharoah's sons (though he was born a hebrew).

It seems like so many cultures worldwide have a great flood story. Why not a great windstorm story that nearly destroys the earth, or a great earthquake story, or a great volcanic eruption story, or a great cosmic collision story, plague story, a great fire, etc. etc.

Why does it always go back to a great catastrophic flood that nearly destroyed the earth, and the sources of many of these stories are independent?

because water is necessary for life, and even primitive humans had a sense of irony im sure.

Yeah, I remember that post. You have a paper on it. What do you personally think about it?

I think people didn't have the technology of writing at the time of the Black Sea's innundation, so this could only be *a* source of the flood myth, not the source.

By the way, Moses wrote the book of Genesis, and he was well educated in Egypt as one of the Pharoah's sons (though he was born a hebrew).

There's no evidence that Moses actually existed much less wrote a portion of the Pentateuch. Indeed, there is more evidence that the Genesis portion was of three separate and distinct authors.

It seems like so many cultures worldwide have a great flood story. Why not a great windstorm story ...[or other stories]

Its obvious. People habitated near sources of irrigation once agriculture was developed. Floods occur with far more frequency and affect more area with greater impact than do other catastrophes. There is archaeological evidence of entire villages and cities being destroyed by flooding along the Tigris and Euphrates alone.

SW said:

Its obvious. People habitated near sources of irrigation once agriculture was developed. Floods occur with far more frequency and affect more area with greater impact than do other catastrophes. There is archaeological evidence of entire villages and cities being destroyed by flooding along the Tigris and Euphrates alone.

True, but then if you look at the 100 worst disasters in the world in the 20th century, floods are topped out by others:

Check out the world disaster center statistics (http://www.disastercenter.com/disaster/TOP100K.html)

Plagues are the worst natural disaster, and they greatly exceed the damage done by floods.

Famines and droughts are right up there with the floods.

Why not a myth that says "the Gods were angry and sent a great plague that killed everyone in the world but hero x "?

Perhaps you have a better explanation for the flood myths.

Why not a myth that says "the Gods were angry and sent a great plague that killed everyone in the world but hero x "?

Such myths *do* exist. In fact, the title character, Atrahasis, was one such hero of one such myth. Enlil was bothered by the noise of humanity and couldn't sleep so he sent first a plague, then a famine, then a terrible drought, and followed up with a global flood. Each time, another god, Enki, would warn Atrahasis by a few days. The last warning came in time to build and load a boat with his family and animals.

The gods, realizing they had destroyed the source of their offerings, were remorseful after the flood.

Your link to the top disasters site is well-taken, but you have to consider that this is a compilation of 20th century data as it applies to 20th century populations. People live in far more diverse regions in modernity for diverse reasons. In antiquity, large population centers rarely strayed far from rivine or coastal areas. Moreover, the flood was an immediate catastrophe that had little or no warning, and had the capability of wiping an entire city from the map or burying it in silt. This, compared to the slow affect of a drought or epidemic was significant. In fact, an epidemic in antiquity may have had limited impact depending on the population affected. In modernity, epidemics are far more noticeable because of how "close" the world has become due to innovations in transportation, etc.

SW said,

Your link to the top disasters site is well-taken, but you have to consider that this is a compilation of 20th century data as it applies to 20th century populations.

With 20th century medicines to help reduce casualties.

Check out the bubonic plague (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague#Historical_plague_epidemics) statistics: 237 million people in Europe in the 14th century.

from ther source:

Mortality in untreated cases may be as high as 95%.

I suspect plagues are the number one catastrophe throughout history.

But not throughout pre-history, especially when we were getting global flooding as the glaciers retreated. I see no reason that period was not preserved in myth.

Ophiolite said:

But not throughout pre-history, especially when we were getting global flooding as the glaciers retreated. I see no reason that period was not preserved in myth.

And nobody could argue whether the tallest mountain was covered with fifteen cubits of snow :D

Would it not be the case that once the last glacial recession really got going a combination of sea level rise, more rain in some regions and bursting glacial dams could lead to sufficient catastrophic flooding now and then between, say, 10,000YBP and 4,000YBP to leave behind oral histories that became incorporated into the mythology of numerous cultures?

Check out the bubonic plague (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague#Historical_plague_epidemics) statistics: 237 million people in Europe in the 14th century.

I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the populations and periods from which flood mythology originated. Instead, you appear to be concerned with much later and larger populations. In the 14th century there were, perhaps, 350 million people in the world. Just off the top of my head, there were only 150 million in the first century CE. If we think exponentially, there were far few people in the world than even the first century when we consider the 4th millenium BCE -the period from which much of the Mesopotamian flood myths originate.

But the real topic here isn't the legitimacy of the noachian flood myth or even the origin of myths in general.

The real topic is the undying tenacity of the superstitious in their attempts to justify their antiquated and obsolete beliefs. You keep bringing this worn out topic of noachian flood back to the forefront as if some new information will turn up. It seems as if you aren't so much trying to convince us as you are yourself.

More to the point, the focus on the Biblical and allegedly literal aspects of the flood myths must surely discourage serious research into the actual flood events that we know humanity lived through during the last major glacial retreat.
I find it intriguing that we may have captured a memory of these events in our ancient myths. I should like to know more. That is going to take longer to happen as long as such investigations are hijacked by the credulous, or those out to make a buck.

I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the populations and periods from which flood mythology originated. Instead, you appear to be concerned with much later and larger populations. In the 14th century there were, perhaps, 350 million people in the world. Just off the top of my head, there were only 150 million in the first century CE. If we think exponentially, there were far few people in the world than even the first century when we consider the 4th millenium BCE -the period from which much of the Mesopotamian flood myths originate.

But the real topic here isn't the legitimacy of the noachian flood myth or even the origin of myths in general.

The real topic is the undying tenacity of the superstitious in their attempts to justify their antiquated and obsolete beliefs. You keep bringing this worn out topic of noachian flood back to the forefront as if some new information will turn up. It seems as if you aren't so much trying to convince us as you are yourself.

SW,

I honestly can't tell where you are trying to go with this. I'm trying to stick to the facts as we know them.. I asked a simple question -- why do so many cultures rely on a flood myth? -- to which you answered that everyone lived in a flood basin, and relied on agriculture when these flood myths originated.

Prior to agriculture, humanity was nomadic. There remain primitive forms of man on earth that never went through the "agricultural revolution." Most of them live in South America, Australia, Africa, and some other environments.

Perhaps you could prove whatever point it is you are trying to make about floods by saying something like -- "The flood myths always emerge from the people that lived in flood plains, whereas, nomadic people like the australian aborigines have "X" catastrophe in their myth history."

Jeesh, try to remain rational will ya?

Personally I think that the float that is spoken of in the story of Noach, isn't just a small coastal region that has been floated, but it must have been an entire continent that has sunk in the sea: So there are 2 possibilities:
1) the water rises
2) the land sunk into the ocean.

Someone in this discussion remarks that there always has been land, which keeps his mountains above the water. We also need to consider that at the time of the noachian flood, not the whole world was known to the humans. So when the myth tells us that there is no land anymore, for 40 day and 40 nights, then this means, that there could have been land, but that the land was not known to the human race.

Personally I think it was the main continent of the humans that has been sunk into the sea. On this continent humanity was created. For the Dawinists this means that the monkeys evolved their brain until they hath consciousness, and therefore we speak of humans. Humanity has lived on this continent as long as they existed. They could find whatever they needed, and because it was u huge island, they didn't know any other continents.

I also consider that there could have been more then one major flood catastrophe.
But when was the last flood? For me it is most likely the period of the last major glacier retreat. If I put on a date of this let's say 10,700 B.C. plus or minus 300 years.

I know this is more then a thousand years earlier then Plato writes in his dialogues Timaeos and Kritias, about the end of Atlantis. But after all this is a religion forum, and for me you belief with you hearth and not with logic. So I declare that I belief that it was in 10,700 BC, so lets just let each other in our own truth and respect that. I have no need to convince any of you of my ideas, I want you to take knowledge of them. You do with it whatever you like!

I have no need to convince any of you of my ideas, I want you to take knowledge of them. You do with it whatever you like!Thank you for that choice. I intend to ignore them, since, as you say, you offer no evidence for any of your contentions. At the same time I am aware of facts that render your ideas impossible.

Religion is not obligated to be close minded, illogical, or retrograde in its thinking. There is nothing to prevent the religious from following their faith and allowing it to be tempered by the insights of science.

Timing of Noah's Flood
It was right on time.

A couple of observations about this very interesting summary.

Assuming "begat" allows for multiple generations and the written lineage might just pick out prominent individuals to mention (unless specific evidencs of a direct father:son relationship is included), how does one best deal with the formula:

when so and so was (age) he begat so and so and after that lived (number of years)?

That question aside, the allowance for multiple generations with each begat does facilitate solving the timing-of-the-flood problem.

Thanks for your summary.
j1r2c3

That formula, conscerning the begats, does not matter because of the use of the word sons for the descendants of Noah's children. A large time break could be present in those scriptures since in Hebrew, sons can refer to descendants many generations later.

Also, the Hebrew usage of the word son, can mean son, or grandson, or great
grandson, or great great great grandson or descendant many generations
later.
[Example: Jesus is called the son of David. Jesus is a descendant of David
many generations later.] If you look at the biblical account of the
descendants of the sons of Noah, it uses the word sons, several times. Every
where it says sons, according to Hebrew usage, it could be referring to
descendants many generations later. That would put the time of Noah's flood
much farther back in history and it would more closely match archeological
findings about the age of man.

Genesis 9:19 These [are] the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole
earth overspread.

Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan,
and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Genesis 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

Genesis 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and
Dodanim.

Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their
lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and
Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.

Everywhere sons is used for the descendants of Noah's children, there could be the large time breaks that could push the flood timing much further back in history.

That formula, conscerning the begats, does not matter because of the use of the word sons for the descendants of Noah's children.

Actually, it "doesn't matter" because only the deluded take that silly, superstitious nonsense literally.

*************
M*W: I've read that the "story" of Noah should precede the "story" of A&E in the GoE, as far a the "timing" goes. This is NOT to say that either can be taken literally. They are simply "stories" of creation. According to this "story" theory, Adam would have been created somewhere other than Earth and place in the GoE. Then Eve would have been created on earth. But, who cares? It's just a story, so the timing of either story is really moot.

I also understand that the Book of Job was chronologically the earliest written "story" in the Bible, and it was written as a dramatic tragedy.

My question is: Why wasn't the Bible assimilated by the timely chronology the books were written? Just seems all the more illogical.

*************
M*W: I've read that the "story" of Noah should precede the "story" of A&E in the GoE, as far a the "timing" goes.

the noah story is just another version of genesis you idiot.

Then Eve would have been created on earth.

it's astrological shit.

But, who cares?

do you want to know.

It's just a story, so the timing of either story is really moot.

and how do you know it's only a fucking story. but i guess you're too stupid to understand the real meaning.

I also understand that the Book of Job was chronologically the earliest written "story" in the Bible, and it was written as a dramatic tragedy.
you believe every shit you want to believe.

c7ityi_: Just go back to thinking you are God... There's a good girl.

Actually, it "doesn't matter" because only the deluded take that silly, superstitious nonsense literally.

On the contrary, it is the deluded that don't take it literally.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.