Why does decomposition occur?

Bacteria have to eat too..

Bacteria have to eat too..

Yes but aside from bacteria why does decomposition occur?

Yes but aside from bacteria why does decomposition occur?

Aside from micro organisms the dead body rots because of its own chemical processes and enzymes.

Edit: This thread may better fit the Biology & Genetics subforum.

entropy

entropy

:bugeye:

I have Neptune in the 7th opposing my Jupiter with Gemini rising

This causes physical Decay as astro substances are depleting and taking things with them at the speed of light as seen on Fast forward tapes.

Aside from micro organisms the dead body rots because of its own chemical processes and enzymes.

Edit: This thread may better fit the Biology & Genetics subforum.

This best fits in organic chemistry. However inorganic materials also decay.

:bugeye:

decomposition is an increase of entropy or dissociation of materials to a greater area/volume. Decomposition does not just happen because molecules bind and unbind with other molecules without need of catalysts because of enough time for these reactions to occur...decomposition happens not just because of presence of oxygen and thus oxydation...decomposition occurs from the universal preference of entropy and dissociation of matter.

Why does decomposition occur?

Bad judgement.

decomposition occurs from the universal preference of entropy and dissociation of matter.

The universe has a preference?
Dude you have some weird beliefs.

The universe has a preference?
Dude you have some weird beliefs.

its my bad choice of wording here...Universe laws are such that particles in greater concentration move to occupy area/volume with lesser concentration...such arrangement favors lower energy requirements associated between such particles. Universe favors entropy.

The universe has a preference?



Its Incidental

bacterial activity
oxydation
digestive enzymes
oportunistic insects (flesh flies, blowflies, wasps, beetles, and their larvae)

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/index.htm

its my bad choice of wording here...Universe laws are such that particles in greater concentration move to occupy area/volume with lesser concentration.
Even with solids in a vacuum?

Even with solids in a vacuum?

yes even with solids in vacuum. After sometime even those molecules will not stay together forever and loose the energy.

I have Neptune in the 7th opposing my Jupiter with Gemini rising

This causes physical Decay as astro substances are depleting and taking things with them at the speed of light as seen on Fast forward tapes.

:bugeye::bugeye::bugeye:

This best fits in organic chemistry. However inorganic materials also decay.

Can you explain about inorganic materials decaying ?

:bugeye::bugeye::bugeye:

People like to be heard, anything including ridiculous nonsense works as well...because life is boring...and when the slow ticking time finally hits us we realize that saying normal things we all know is just not fun anymore...and so we make up gibberish trying to peace logic out of thin air, because...because...we are bored and we want to be heard. Enmos, you do understand that, don't you?

its my bad choice of wording here...Universe laws are such that particles in greater concentration move to occupy area/volume with lesser concentration...such arrangement favors lower energy requirements associated between such particles. Universe favors entropy.

Draqon, if decomposition increases entropy, why do you say entropy causes decomposition.. ??

(lol ?)

Can you explain about inorganic materials decaying ?

All materials decay...Enmos...First law of thermodynamics.

People like to be heard, anything including ridiculous nonsense works as well...because life is boring...and when the slow ticking time finally hits us we realize that saying normal things we all know is just not fun anymore...and so we make up gibberish trying to peace logic out of thin air, because...because...we are bored and we want to be heard. Enmos, you do understand that, don't you?

No.. sorry.

Pluto here isn't in search of a comedian, he asked for answers.

All materials decay...Enmos...First law of thermodynamics.

I asked that question so I could find out what definition he holds of decomposition.
Decomposition, to me, means organic decomposition.

You might be referring to radio-active decay.. which is something entirely different.

Inorganic materials do not rot to my knowledge..

Inorganic materials do not rot to my knowledge..

Inorganic materials have to be in some medium, right?

what medium do you want these inorganic materials to be in, as an example?

Inorganic materials have to be in some medium, right?

what medium do you want these inorganic materials to be in, as an example?

Give an example of inorganic materials rotting.

Give an example of inorganic materials rotting.

no darn it...you give an example of inorganic material and a medium these inorganic materials are in...

Maybe you don't understand it...to me rotting is decay and decay is increase of entropy of the material or basically the material permeates to a greater space.

no darn it...you give an example of inorganic material and a medium these inorganic materials are in...
You've already had one: solids in a vacuum.
Say a lump of iron.
Why does that "rot"?

You've already had one: solids in a vacuum.
Say a lump of iron.
Why does that "rot"?

well before I answer it, give me your difinition of "rot" or "rotting".

You've just stated that rotting is decay and decay is rotting.
Why and how does the iron "decay"?

You've already had one: solids in a vacuum.
Say a lump of iron.
Why does that "rot"?

Make that a lump of gold :D

You've just stated that rotting is decay and decay is rotting.
Why and how does the iron "decay"?

In this hypothetical situation were is iron located? If iron of mass 1 kg is located in space and there is nothing else in space than over millenia of time the molecules of iron will dissintegrate as the rotating electrons around the atoms of iron will loose their energy and go to a lower state.

doesn't entropy work only in closed systems?

because the second law of thermodynamics state that no process is 100% efficient...and since such is true electrons cannot move around the atom forever without loosing energy to satisfy this law.

In this hypothetical situation were is iron located? If iron of mass 1 kg is located in space and there is nothing else in space than over millenia of time the molecules of iron will dissintegrate as the rotating electrons around the atoms of iron will loose their energy and go to a lower state.

what's lower than iron?

In this hypothetical situation were is iron located? If iron of mass 1 kg is located in space and there is nothing else in space than over millenia of time the molecules of iron will dissintegrate as the rotating electrons around the atoms of iron will loose their energy and go to a lower state.

Lower state?
Than iron?

what's lower than iron?

Well I am not sure if the change will have effect on protons which define the atom...so if it looses electrons...its still iron but an isotope.

Lower state?
Than iron?

no the electrons will either move out of orbit...relocate with other electrons of other molecules or move to a lower orbit around the atom...

either way...it will all fall apart to protons, electrons, neutrons...and perhaps even farther apart to muons, quarks...

But in real universe thats not what happens...in real universe things collapse onto themselves because there is not just 1kg of iron present in the universe...but lots of matter...

well before I answer it, give me your difinition of "rot" or "rotting".

Draqon, decomposition implies loss of structure.
In biology this means loss of organic structure.
In chemistry this means separation into constituents by chemical reaction.
Mostly though, when using the word "decomposition", organic decomposition is meant.
Rotting is the process of organic decomposition by means of micro-organism and the organic objects own chemical processes and enzymes.

Edit:
Draqon, you are confusion mere chemical reactions with organic decomposition.

well than Enmos don't use the word "rotting" for inorganic molecules.

Anyways...there is no such thing as a closed system

well than Enmos don't use the word "rotting" for inorganic molecules.

No one in their right mind does.
Unless otherwise specified "decomposition" means decomposition of organic materials.

No one in their right mind does.
Unless otherwise specified "decomposition" means decomposition of organic materials.

well than why are we having this discussion?! :eek:

Anyways...there is no such thing as a closed system

There are..

Anyway, I would like you to refute the closed system of the universe itself.

well than why are we having this discussion?! :eek:
:bugeye:

decomposition is an increase of entropy or dissociation of materials to a greater area/volume. Decomposition does not just happen because molecules bind and unbind with other molecules without need of catalysts because of enough time for these reactions to occur...decomposition happens not just because of presence of oxygen and thus oxydation...decomposition occurs from the universal preference of entropy and dissociation of matter.

Edit: Draqon, can you please answer post 20 ?

There are..

Anyway, I would like you to refute the closed system of the universe itself.

String theory

Critical density of universe is approximately 5 * 10^-30 grams per cubic centimeter ...

If mass of universe is equal to critical mass: most likely scenario...
If mass of universe is greater than critical mass: than gravity will someday collapse everything unto itself and this will be a closed universe
If mass of universe if smaller than critical mass: than universe will expand forever and all stars will move away from each other and this will be an open universe


What I am saying is that universe is an open system but there is a dark matter that exists for 70% of the universe and this matter acts in a different aspect as gravitation does...when universe reaches a point the dark matter will collapse clusters of stars upon itself to form black holes which will merge to form bigger black holes, until everything will merge into one black hole and form one point of singularity...the instant that point is reached a new Big Bang will occur...and so the universe will form again.

Draqon, if decomposition increases entropy, why do you say entropy causes decomposition.. ??

(lol ?)

Its my bad wording again, Enmos. Entropy is just a measure of matter distribution over area, the greater the entropy of material is the more it is permeatted over that volume/area. "Decomposition causes greater entropy" would be a correct way of saying it.

String theory

Critical density of universe is approximately 5 * 10^-30 grams per cubic centimeter ...

If mass of universe is equal to critical mass: most likely scenario...
If mass of universe is greater than critical mass: than gravity will someday collapse everything unto itself and this will be a closed universe
If mass of universe if smaller than critical mass: than universe will expand forever and all stars will move away from each other and this will be an open universe


What I am saying is that universe is an open system but there is a dark matter that exists for 70% of the universe and this matter acts in a different aspect as gravitation does...when universe reaches a point the dark matter will collapse clusters of stars upon itself to form black holes which will merge to form bigger black holes, until everything will merge into one black hole and form one point of singularity...the instant that point is reached a new Big Bang will occur...and so the universe will form again.

Wrong. Since the universe is 'all there is', it is a closed system by definition.
There is no 'outside of the universe'.

"Decomposition causes greater entropy" would be a correct way of saying it.

Yes.
Now look at the question posed in the OP again.

Wrong. Since the universe is 'all there is', it is a closed system by definition.
There is no 'outside of the universe'.

and that is were I disagree...I see universe as a bubble, other universes (as bubbles) have a possibility of existing.

Decomposition occurs because universe favors entropy.

and that is were I disagree...I see universe as a bubble, other universes (as bubbles) have a possibility of existing.

:confused:
"Universe" means 'all there is' by definition.
If you say that there are other 'universes' (bubbles) then they are included in the universe.

:confused:
"Universe" means 'all there is' by definition.
If you say that there are other 'universes' (bubbles) then they are included in the universe.

yes...but those other bubbles exist in a different dimensional space/frame/time and thus cannot be defined as "closed" "open" or "flat" ... they are there and that is all that can be said.

Decomposition occurs because universe favors entropy.

Who told the micro-organisms that ?
You are presuming the universe has purpose.

Who told the micro-organisms that ?
You are presuming the universe has purpose.

Everything has purpose Enmos, if it did not...it would not exist.

yes...but those other bubbles exist in a different dimensional space/frame/time

By above statement, all these bubbles are closed systems.. :shrug:

Everything has purpose Enmos, if it did not...it would not exist.

Supposition.

Everything has purpose Enmos, if it did not...it would not exist.

How can something have purpose before it exists ?

By above statement, all these bubbles are closed systems.. :shrug:

By your definition all these bubbles are themselves closed systems...alltogether make up the whole universe and thus the way bubbles universe are is not what universe is.

Many closed systems within another system do not define whether that system is open or closed.

How can something have purpose before it exists ?

It always exists and therefore has its existence as its purposed. Before is irrelevant as everything is cyclical.

Supposition.

You wish me...a pint of sand on the ocean floor to define the whole ocean? What more can I offer than suppostion?

By your definition all these bubbles are themselves closed systems...alltogether make up the whole universe and thus the way bubbles universe are is not what universe is.

Many closed systems within another system do not define whether that system is open or closed.

No.. I was just telling you that your argument contradicted your earlier statement "there are no closed systems".

It always exists and therefore has its existence as its purposed. Before is irrelevant as everything is cyclical.

But during the process of Eruding, It has changed form

No.. I was just telling you that your argument contradicted your earlier statement "there are no closed systems".

Thats because this so called bubble is not closed...it is not a bubble...it is shaped as a bubble in my view (because of expansion from singularity all throughout to form such shape).

Is bubble a closed system?:bugeye:

You wish me...a pint of sand on the ocean floor to define the whole ocean? What more can I offer than suppostion?

But you state it as fact...
Pint of sand?

It always exists and therefore has its existence as its purposed. Before is irrelevant as everything is cyclical.

:bugeye:
A plant, for instance, did NOT always exist. Yet the purpose of the universe is for it to decompose, according to you.
Why did the universe create the plant in the first place ?

While living things are highly ordered (decreased entropy) they cause chaos in their immediate surroundings (increased entropy). The two cancel out.

But you state it as fact...
Pint of sand?

Allright than I..."I draqon state the following that what I have stated is the most probable assumption of the nature of universe based on other most probable assumptions called laws"

Is bubble a closed system?:bugeye:

It is if you define it as you did: they "exist in a different dimensional space/frame/time".

Most probable?
Never mind :)

:bugeye:
A plant, for instance, did NOT always exist. Yet the purpose of the universe is for it to decompose, according to you.
Why did the universe create the plant in the first place ?

While living things are highly ordered (decreased entropy) they cause chaos in their immediate surroundings (increased entropy). The two cancel out.

life is a very delicate branch in understanding entropy...I am not sure myself why life exists itself, because such would mean that in following scenario the highly complex life with a definite unfavoring of entropy seems to be in place of existence...I simply cannot answer the question.

A plant exists in time frame of existence of universe for that cycle of its existence. So in next cycle of universe creation that plant will most likely exist as well again.

Allright than I..."I draqon state the following that what I have stated is the most probable assumption of the nature of universe..
Not to me.. you are just stating your opinion.


..based on other most probable assumptions called laws"
Show that these laws support this.

look people...you rain me with questions I have no answers myself. As I stand, the answers I give are most probable assumptions with the highest probability of being a fact for cases you ask me for. Because everything is an assumption.

life is a very delicate branch in understanding entropy...I am not sure myself why life exists itself, because such would mean that in following scenario the highly complex life with a definite unfavoring of entropy seems to be in place of existence...I simply cannot answer the question.

A plant exists in time frame of existence of universe for that cycle of its existence. So in next cycle of universe creation that plant will most likely exist as well again.

Nonsense, unfounded assumptions and more pseudo-babble..
I'm sorry Draqon, but this is it for me.

Not to me.. you are just stating your opinion.
Show that these laws support this.

read into "string theory" and choose your own most probable belief.

The probability of decomposition is 77.7% in the odds favoring all matter if it were to be out of the box

Allright than Enmos...you wish me to cite others because you do not believe me? Fine

here is a site on string theory:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

a site on discussion of open, closed, and flat universe: http://www.superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo21.html

the laws of entropy or laws of thermodynamics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

Discussion of multiverse theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(science)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.4460 (if you got the subscription to this)

The probability of decomposition is 77.7% in the odds favoring all matter if it were to be out of the box

Wtf ? LOL

<78

Enmos you want concrete answers, there are none. Thats why we got projects like CERN to give us "most probable" answers. Now read those sites I posted, please.

Decomposition occurs because universe favors entropy.

then how is conception, pregnancy and birth possible?
wouldnt the forming of an organism be anti-entropic?

Give an example of inorganic materials rotting.

Iron rusts. Snow melts. Salt dissolves.
I guess it depends on how you define "rot".

Draqon, decomposition implies loss of structure.
In biology this means loss of organic structure.
In chemistry this means separation into constituents by chemical reaction.
Mostly though, when using the word "decomposition", organic decomposition is meant.
Rotting is the process of organic decomposition by means of micro-organism and the organic objects own chemical processes and enzymes.

Edit:
Draqon, you are confusion mere chemical reactions with organic decomposition.

Oh for fucks sake, get a clue (http://www.chemicool.com/definition/decomposition.html).

Why does decomposition occur?

For cycling. Everything is made up of elements, but the compounds which define structure and hence functionality are not the same, hence the elements (which are finite) must cycle and require decomposition to be available.

Draqon, decomposition implies loss of structure.
In biology this means loss of organic structure.
In chemistry this means separation into constituents by chemical reaction.
Mostly though, when using the word "decomposition", organic decomposition is meant.
Rotting is the process of organic decomposition by means of micro-organism and the organic objects own chemical processes and enzymes.

So why does decomposition by means of micro-organisms occur only after death?

So why does decomposition by means of micro-organisms occur only after death?

decomposition occurs during life as well...its just that the rate of new cell formation is higher than the rate of cells decomposing.

For cycling. Everything is made up of elements, but the compounds which define structure and hence functionality are not the same, hence the elements (which are finite) must cycle and require decomposition to be available.

So does decomposition mean that nature and the universe are finite, like in cyclic universe theory?

decomposition is a natural state reaction, one of the two main reactions- composition and decomposition. Usually you can't have one without the other, just like you can't go to a good school and still keep your wallet.

decomposition occurs during life as well...its just that the rate of new cell formation is higher than the rate of cells decomposing.

But why does bacterial decomposition only occur after death and not during life?

But why does bacterial decomposition only occur after death and not during life?

bacterial decomposition occurs during life as well...but at extremely small rate...since bacteria are faced with lysing cells of the body. bacteria decomposition increases logarithmically as soon as the body no longer is able to supply such lysing cells to kill the bacteria.

So does decomposition mean that nature and the universe are finite, like in cyclic universe theory?

In my opinion, its a closed system. Just a very large one.

In my opinion, its a closed system. Just a very large one.

so large that concept of it being closed is irrelevant.

Not according to market forces.

Not according to market forces.

what do you mean?

Oh for fucks sake, get a clue (http://www.chemicool.com/definition/decomposition.html).

:eek: Look at the page header ! :D

So why does decomposition by means of micro-organisms occur only after death?

Because the body starts breaking down after death because of it's own chemical processes.. plus there is no defense against these micro-organisms anymore.

So does decomposition mean that nature and the universe are finite, like in cyclic universe theory?

No, it just means that ecosystems or more or less closed systems.
I don't know whether or not SAM worded it like that on purpose, but there is a false sense of purpose implied by her post.

Because the body starts breaking down after death because of it's own chemical processes.. plus there is no defense against these micro-organisms anymore.

But what are the processes beside autolysis and micro-organisms?

But what are the processes beside autolysis and micro-organisms?

Those are the primary processes.

Those are the primary processes.

And what are the other processes?

And what are the other processes?

Other chemical processes that aren't autolysis I guess.

Other chemical processes that aren't autolysis I guess.

But what are the "other chemical processes"?

Is there still some point to this ? lol
Maybe stomach acids do their parts etc..