Central American Free Trade - bad idea

It seems Bush really wants to destroy the Western hemisphere. It seems to me like all the top members of governments in the U.S. and central American countries all have special interests in this agreement, why else would they willingly subject taxpayers to more taxes and small farmers to possible bankruptcy.

From "Stop CAFTA"

The only people to gain from this are rich white folk with special interest groups under their control (ala George Bush and his cronies). And yet they still pass this decision under the illusion that it will help everyone. I'd like to believe that today's world is more civil than a millenium ago, but alas not.. people will always be subjugative and greedy.

 

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So President Bush is doing this all by himself? ..without the congress voting or debating the issue? ...the deal will be enacted ONLY by President Bush?

This is just foolish smear and fear tactics! If the CAFTA is passed, it will be passed by both the senate and the house of representatives ....President Bush can't enact this law/agreement without the support of congress! So why do you seek to blame President Bush?

I don't know why so many people continue to blame President Bush (or for that matter any president) for things that have been or will be or might be passed into law by the congress?!?!?

Baron Max

 

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I seek to blame him because he and Cheney both personally made speeches to rally congress on voting yes, but I don't think you knew that. How often to both the president and his vice-president show up at congress to appeal something to be passed? Not very often.

 

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So ....showing up in congress to speak is ...what?.... forcing them to vote for his bill? How?

And if it were even remotely true, then why don't presidents show up and speak all the time one of their bills is up for a vote?

I think ye're just seeking someone to blame without know who ....so you just pick one out of the air ...one that appears to have some authority and name-recognition ...even tho' the president really has very, very little power without the vote of the congress.

But that's okay, Hurricane, most everyone else blames President Bush, so you might as well join in on the fun n' games.

Baron Max

 

He does and will have the vote of congress on practically everything he does, simply because congress is mostly republican. Anyone who is a republican and does vote against him can mainly kiss there career good-bye..

 

Baron... who are you? Really... and why are you on a forum dedicated to the "intelligent community". I've noticed from all your political babble that you rarely actually investigate or have knowledge on whatever youre talking about. Defending Bush in such a blind fashion is not patriotic, its much the opposite, because your countrymen are about to lose jobs, alot of them. But I don't expect anyone other than yourself to cross your conscience.

Remotely true? It's all over the news you fucking moron. Explain these headings:
Congress passes CAFTA after Bush lobbying
President makes personal appeal to Republicans for free trade agreement

Source

 

My opinion about NAFTA and CAFTA is very similar to Hurricane Angel's. The only difference in our opinions, I think, is that it is not just the republicans who benefit by it. Anyone with power and money, even some democrats, benefit from it. We are on the downward arm of the spiral. Isn't America great?!

 

Well I gotta agree with ya there, although to say Bush has nothing to do with it is a bit silly. But yes, as bad as he may be, it is tiring to see everything blamed soley on Bush and not the other people involved or responsible for the issue. It was interesting to see some of the corrupt senators named on the news when they showed who said they'd vote firmly against CAFTA since CAFTA was so damaging to us only to all of a sudden have em vote for it and whatnot. At least in this case, there was at least 5 corrupt senators involved. But even then, it still goes deeper than this (at least when it comes to other issues).

- N

 

Remember who the five were? I didn't catch the news today.

IMO, yes it does. Much deeper, and much farther away than I think any of us can imagine or will imagine.

 

If you'd read my post, you'd have seen that it was mostly questioning YOUR post, rather than making any statements of my own beliefs. So ....why don't you answer those questions and points instead of resorting to personal attacks? Please ....re-read my post, then comment if you wish.

But by the same token, won't if mean that workers in Central America will have more jobs and better income? And isn't that what many/most doo-gooder liberals in this nation want ...for the US to help all the poor, impoverished nations in the world? Or would you make the choice of OURS versus THEIRS?

Baron Max

 

Actually I agree in part with Max. Bush isn't the sole bearer of responsibility in this case.

However, the little tidbit about workers in central america having better jobs is a load of horse shit. Since world war 2, there has been a bit of a socialist revolution in latin america. Many countries took their utilities and natural resources out of the control of private companies and nationalized them. Over the years, the United States has bombed these people in trying to force them to take on economic structure that is compatible with theirs. CAFTA would set up laws governing certain economic attributes of Latin America, and in those countries where their own democratically voted laws contridict with CAFTA, it's too bad. The US (and their business interests) would override any local laws because they simply want to.

CAFTA = bad news for the 3rd world...

 

So if it's bad for America and bad for Central America ....then what the fuck is it for? And how does it help anyone?

Baron Max

 

Okay, so at first you said that Bush lobbying for CAFTA was "not even remotely true" and then you try to tell me that you didn't state any personal beliefs? Please, give me a break... either stick with what you said, or don't say anything at all. You're sounding worse than Election 2004.

When I said that you didn't know anything, it wasn't a personal attack, it was an observation stated to make to say less and read more. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

Not only did you not read my links on CAFTA, you didn't even read what I said about it, and you still continue to post in this thread in a headstrong fashion. I don't know who you are or how old you are, but you've been acting/posting like a six year old. Either change or stay out of the politics forum.

 

Hurricane Angel, I copied my original post so you could read it again. Please read YOUR first post, then read the post below ....perhaps, just maybe, this time you'll understand. If not, I can't help you. Check for question marks and comments, rather than any statements of fact.

Originally Posted by Hurricane Angel
"It seems Bush really wants to destroy the Western hemisphere.”

(Then my response to your post!):

So President Bush is doing this all by himself? ..without the congress voting or debating the issue? ...the deal will be enacted ONLY by President Bush?

This is just foolish smear and fear tactics! If the CAFTA is passed, it will be passed by both the senate and the house of representatives ....President Bush can't enact this law/agreement without the support of congress! So why do you seek to blame President Bush?

I don't know why so many people continue to blame President Bush (or for that matter any president) for things that have been or will be or might be passed into law by the congress?!?!?

Baron Max

Did you notice the question marks?

 

Okay, and I said that I'm blaming him because he personally went to congress and lobbied for it.

And before you say that's not fair, it certainly is fair to blame him because half of congress is willing to kiss his ass to suckle at his power and because Bush and his republican posse are the only ones to benefit from this deal.

There you have it, now onto your other comment;

It was explained in this whole thread and you asked the question after everything was explained, that's where my personal frustration came from, not from our first exchange.

 

Jeez, of course Bush supported CAFTA. The point is, free trade is GOOD FOR ALL NATIONS CONCERNED. It may be bad for certain industries in certain nations, but overall,the nations with the most liberal trade policies are also the richest. Has anyone here studied economics? Ever hear of comparative or absolute advantage?

Bush supported this policy so that we could compete with the EU which was about to displace the US as the largest free trade zone. There's a good article here: http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch40/40c000.html

Some quotes:

 

Ever heard of lobbying??? The president is a very influential figure. However you have your wish, i'll start blaming republicans and so called "Conservatives" for our problems.

 

To some extent, but influencing people out of sustainable agricultural jobs into higher wage but dead end factory work will not be good for them in the end.

Yes, I would.

 

The truth behind that "all nations will benefit" is that yes they will get extra money, but in the central american nations, whom the majority of populations are poor, nobody will get to see that money or get it spent to good use. With all these factory jobs that people are about to get, half their income will be spent on food, as opposed to none when then had farming jobs. While this agreement may benefit all the nations, only select people will actually control and own that benefit.

Besides, my personal opinion is that this was done to compete with China. They already have a massive low wage workforce and America also wanted one close to home, which can be under its influence.

 

But isn't that a problem for those Central American nations and NOT with the CAFTA itself or with President Bush? I mean, perhaps there is a problem, but are we supposed to fix THAT problem and THEN enact the CAFTA? I just don't understand your complaint about the treaty.

Baron Max

The only people who do any real good are whores and bartenders!