Ya' know, I've heard that comment many, many times in my life and from some very intelligent, knowledgeable people. I've also known many religious people who do seem to be more content than those who do not believe in some religious doctrine. Do you suppose that it's true? And if so, why?

And, please, this is NOT about radical extremists, etc., but just good ol' fashioned belief and basic good ol', plain, ordinary, church-going people.

Baron Max

Probably since they think they have solved a major problem - death.

Similarly I suspect that cows are largely quite happy right up to the point where they are slaughtered for meat.

Those of us who take a more realistic approach to life must somehow come to terms with our inevitable and probable non existence. This is not something I find comforting.

Surveys on personal contentment do not show any greater self-rated happiness for religious people.

Married people are happier on surveys.

James,

Surveys on personal contentment do not show any greater self-rated happiness for religious people. I wonder if that could be explained by the rules of religions that create feelings of guilt that perfectly counterbalance the belief of eternal life.

I don't know the reasons, Cris. It's complicated.

Interestingly, self-rated happiness doesn't even correlate with wealth.

Ok, although the wealth aspect doesn't surprise me.

Do you have any references?

Similarly I suspect that cows are largely quite happy right up to the point where they are slaughtered for meat.

Not in factory farming. They live miserable lives.

I'd say that IF it's true that religious people are happier, it's because they think they know it all.

Do you have any references?

No. It's just something from memory. Probably a little googling would produce something.

Ya' know, I've heard that comment many, many times in my life and from some very intelligent, knowledgeable people. I've also known many religious people who do seem to be more content than those who do not believe in some religious doctrine. Do you suppose that it's true? And if so, why?

And, please, this is NOT about radical extremists, etc., but just good ol' fashioned belief and basic good ol', plain, ordinary, church-going people.

Baron Maxof course they are, ignorance is bliss.

The study in the September issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology says the brains of creative people appear to be more open to incoming stimuli from the surrounding environment. Other people's brains might shut out this same information through a process called "latent inhibition" - defined as an animal's unconscious capacity to ignore stimuli that experience has shown are irrelevant to its needs. Through psychological testing, the researchers showed that creative individuals are much more likely to have low levels of latent inhibition.

"This means that creative individuals remain in contact with the extra information constantly streaming in from the environment," says co-author and U of T psychology professor Jordan Peterson. "The normal person classifies an object, and then forgets about it, even though that object is much more complex and interesting than he or she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, is always open to new possibilities."

reviously, scientists have associated failure to screen out stimuli with psychosis. However, Peterson and his co-researchers - lead author and psychology lecturer Shelley Carson of Harvard University's Faculty of Arts and Sciences and Harvard PhD candidate Daniel Higgins - hypothesized that it might also contribute to original thinking, especially when combined with high IQ. They administered tests of latent inhibition to Harvard undergraduates. Those classified as eminent creative achievers - participants under age 21 who reported unusually high scores in a single area of creative achievement - were seven times more likely to have low latent inhibition scores.

The authors hypothesize that latent inhibition may be positive when combined with high intelligence and good working memory - the capacity to think about many things at once - but negative otherwise.

taken from here...http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001684.html

i think it depends on how you define happiness. since there is no definition of it that will work for everyone, i think its hard to say.

If I believed everything I learned at school, I would be happy, I would not need any answeres.

Religious have the answers

P.s. forgive mistakes in post, new years drunk!

I say Yes and No.

Yes - refer to geeser's post.

No - Unhappy people (especially poverty stricken people in third world countries) turn to religion as a hope of God giving them a better life. They are religious, but yet unhappy, so the answer to the question is Yes and No based upon how you look at it.

...(especially poverty stricken people in third world countries) turn to religion as a hope of God giving them a better life. They are religious, but yet unhappy, ....

But the question isn't "are they happy", but are they HAPPIER than those in similar conditions. I.e., we all know that starving people probably aren't happy, but of all of those unhappy, starving people, are those who are religious happier, stressing the -IER, than the other starving people?

Also I think it's easy, simplistic, to say "Ignorance is bliss", but I've not seen anything to support the notion that religious people are any more ignorant than non-religious people.

Of two groups of people - one group religious, one group non-religious; of equal status in the community; with equal wealth; with equal intelligence ...is the religious group happier than the non-religious group?

It's been my 60-some years of observations that religious people are happier than the non-religious people. But let's face it, I don't know all that many people of the world! So the question still stands unanswered.

Baron Max

Why should they be? I'm as happy as I can be, this is a wonderful world! And I follow no religious belief.
Death / disintegration is nothing to worry about, imo, it's a vital part of how this universe works. It's not that something bad happens.

Myself being aware of the supposed age of this universe, this planet, the countless life-forms that have been inhabiting it, species appearing, disappearing, from simple micro-organisms, to first fishes, tetrapods, dinosaurs, sabre tooths, homo neanderthalis, etc... Cells dividing, dying, atoms rearranging, extinctions, new life appearing..
To put any importance in my existance as an individual in this grand theatre would be the most egoistic arrogance ever.

Paradise, afterworlds, bah! :D
Illusions to make weak people feel better.

Oh, and as an ending quote, words from a German film "In weiter Ferne, so nah!" (in german it sounds better)

To every thing there is a season...
a time to every purpose
under heaven.

There is a time to be born...
a time to die...
a time to kill...
a time to heal...
a time to weep...
a time to laugh...
a time to seek...
a time to keep silent...
a time to speak...
a time to love.

- A time...
- to love...
- a time...
- to hate...
- a time...
for conflict...
a time...
for peace.

Why should they be? I'm as happy as I can be, this is a wonderful world! And I follow no religious belief.

Well, I don't know why they should be happier ...or even if they are. And that's why this topic was raised. I don't know the answer, and I was hoping that someone else might know.

But, Avatar, you being just one person does not make anything true for anyone else ...so your own happiness isn't even a factor in the discussion. And quoting someone else's opinion is also not much of a factor in the discussion ...it doesn't help answer the question. Just like some Hollywood movie wouldn't answer the question either!

Baron Max

Sure, but my mental state shows that one (and potentially others) doesn't have to be religious in order to be very happy and content.

That quote was not intended for you, but for anyone who thinks that life is too short therefore an afterlife has to be imagined and desired.

How can people think of death as something bad? Even if you're the happiest person ever, it doesn't matter -- when you're dead, you're dead. For me it sounds like the ultimate liberation to not exist. But for some reason, ever since I was small, I have never believed in non-existence. Non-existence is just what it is: it does not exist. Hopefully it can still be attained with complete self-knowledge.

Religious people are happier because they have hope and faith in God. Faith in God is subconsciously faith in oneself. Atheists also believe in themselves, but they may not know their actual power because they only believe in what they know about themselves. Christ came to earth to show that everyone can become like him. That's how we are in reality, that's the one we should have faith in.

Maybe not then...

If ignorance is bliss, then why aren't more people happy?
- by someone other than me :P

But the question isn't "are they happy", but are they HAPPIER than those in similar conditions. I.e., we all know that starving people probably aren't happy, but of all of those unhappy, starving people, are those who are religious happier, stressing the -IER, than the other starving people?



i think so.humans like having the answers to questions and if you are religious you have an answer to the question that bugs most people the most "why?".i would say that if a person is religious but doesnt truly believe then they would not be happier but if someone truly believes then they are generally happy as a pig in shit.(from people ive met)

Religious people are not nessasarily happier....

just more likely to be kind, compassionate and nice... and less likely to kill you..
or rob you... you rape your mother and wife....

the ones that do evil... may claim to be religious... but it means nothing without repentance.. and the accepting of all the positive programming....

-MT

oh please.....
what if that religion requires followers to be violent and offensive towards nonbelievers or some other people?

and what about Moses ordering to rape the women and kill all men and boys?
wasn't Moses a religious man?

you talk shit, Mosheh Thezion

Since ignorance is a bliss, I guess religious people are happy- happily ignorant.

well... it depend on which religion you speak of... and the particular interpretations of scriptures...

But, seriously... do you think for a moment that our world, western world, could be as it is.. without the long term influence of Jesus?

Were the arabs better of as Pagans before Mohammed... no.. they were all barbaric savages.. they treated women as slaves and cattle...

no... religion is a good influence... generally.. but its not perfect.

-MT

But, seriously... do you think for a moment that our world, western world, could be as it is.. without the long term influence of Jesus?
I would have prefered it to be left alone without the influence from semite religions, they make weak individuals and easy controlable crowds.
Actually that's all that the big 3 are - psychological crowd control tools.

just more likely to be kind, compassionate and nice... and less likely to kill you..
or rob you... you rape your mother and wife....

Why then are prisons filled with theists?

Were the arabs better of as Pagans before Mohammed... no.. they were all barbaric savages.. they treated women as slaves and cattle...

And what exactly has changed?

Religious people are not nessasarily happier....

just more likely to be kind, compassionate and nice... and less likely to kill you..
or rob you... you rape your mother and wife....sorry mate you've got that arse about face(back to front) 99.9999% of serial killers are and were religious, you be hard pushed to find a non believing serial killer.

the ones that do evil... may claim to be religious... but it means nothing without repentance.. take a long hard look, you'll find this is the whole reason they will do evil, cause they can always repent after, life mean very little to those who believe thay will be at a gods side when they die.

and is it not a good thing to have a calm, peaceful society?

rather than allow males to form violent gangs of warriors that fight and take what they want by force...
barbarians..??

I too long for the days of ancient adventuring... but those kinds of free lives have no place in a civilized world.... they are anti-peace and prosperity.

so again... religion is a good thing.

and you are obviously not chained down.. and forced to believe are you? no.

-MT

anyone who says he can repent later... will not be sincere when he does.
-MT

rather than allow males to form violent gangs of warriors that fight and take what they want by force...
Crusaders? American soldiers in Iraq? Islam jihaad fighters in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan? Israeli army?

Do not confuse political ambition that wears a cloak of religion.. that is using religion, and actual religion.

do not blame the religion for the evil that men do, while ruling its dogma.

-MT

You are nobody to tell me what to do and what to think or speak.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are used for controlling individuals into obedient masses, the key factor in them is fear, the reasons for that control have always been the same and they've always been political whatever the good intentions of Jesus or some other philosophers were.

and so i suppose Islam is keeping people passive???

are you afraid of the old preacher man,.... does he want to control you?

-MT

Why should it keep people passive? Those in control use it against other powers.

I'm not afraid of anything. There is nothing to be afraid of.

If you think that the christian religion has been nothing but a positive influence on the world. You don't know your history to well. Lets not forget the crusades which, fueled by the catholic church, pillaged and killed anyone who did not believe as they did for of power, wealth, and territory. The usual christian retort to this is "They were possesed by demons". No they were possesed by money and power("THEY" being the Catholic Church). If you don't think this has carried on till today your naive. Find me a religous organization who would not take every dime you own if you were to be so dissilusioned that you would give it to them. They may not pillage and kill any more but I'm pretty sure money and power is still priority ONE, not Faith.
According to them if I were to leave myself broke, my Faith alone would see me through. Why then does this not apply to the Organizations. I challenge
any christian org. to give up all their wealth and just have faith God will sustain them. Ha ha ha :D

We're losing the thread, huh? :)

Please, this ain't about any of that stuff y'all are arguing about ....it's about plain ol' people being happy. It's not about the crusades or the jihads or any of that crap.

Are people who are religious happier than non-believers?

A few people answered quite appropriately, then the thread disintegrated into....??? :)

Baron Max

Ya' know, I've heard that comment many, many times in my life and from some very intelligent, knowledgeable people. I've also known many religious people who do seem to be more content than those who do not believe in some religious doctrine. Do you suppose that it's true? And if so, why?

And, please, this is NOT about radical extremists, etc., but just good ol' fashioned belief and basic good ol', plain, ordinary, church-going people.

Baron Max

I think they are happier. I mean some people believe that after they die, their just dead. Surely people who believe their going to live forever in paradise are happier, I'd think so.

I think that unhappy people turn to religion as a saviour.

I would be very unhappy if i was

Christian: Having to get up early on sunday morning

Jewish: Not being able to do anything on the sabath and being denied bacon

Muslim: Having to pray a lot and having the racism against you

I mean some people believe that after they die, their just dead. Surely people who believe their going to live forever in paradise are happier, I'd think so.
Why should I be sadder than those believing in their illusionous fantasies?
As I stated before: I'm fascinated of how this universe works, disintegration is a vital part of that.
For example, the absolute majority of the atoms on this planet are the same as when the planet was formed some 4.5 billion years ago, if it weren't for rearrangment of atoms it would all still be boiling rock, water vapour and lava, now the same atoms have assembled into forests, rivers, and all life that you see and will never see. And it's possible that some part of your body is of atoms that were a part of a t-rex. If stuff didn't change, atoms didn't rearrange, nothing would be as it is, no stars, no Earth, no life and no you. Humans are made of nuclear waste products of "dead" stars. Death must be, those who wish to live over all are egoists consciously or unconsciously against this universe, nature and all future generations.

I'm content with all of the existance. No fears, no sadness, no longing.
Are christians?

ill answer the thread's question first:
i believe that "good ol' fashioned church going folks are happier than non-theists. there are alot of good reasons for this though, and alot of them have already been given. i think it boils down to the fact that these folks have a sense of security about something they dont have concrete knowledge of: death and afterdeath. also, the word "religious" applies to all sorts of folks. atheists are "religious" after a fashion. i believe that if a person has something to hold onto with their brains (like religion), and that something is a large part of their life, that person will always be more content.

now for something completely different:
You are nobody to tell me what to do and what to think or speak.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are used for controlling individuals into obedient masses, the key factor in them is fear, the reasons for that control have always been the same and they've always been political whatever the good intentions of Jesus or some other philosophers were.
you have no true knowledge of contemporary judaism, if you honestly think this. i am jewish, and i do not attend synagogue. i do not contribute to a temple of any kind. so how am i being controlled?
you speak out of ignorance, with broad sweeping gestures.

i do not contribute to a temple of any kind. so how am i being controlled?
You believe in what you are told by the jewish legends and other texts. You act out of that belief, thus your consciousness and actions are being controlled to an extent.
Maybe and probably not so much as a temple goer and head basher.

you speak out of ignorance, with broad sweeping gestures.
Or maybe I spent quite some years researching religions till some 6 years ago. But that means nothing, if you wish to think so.
Have you no fear of upsetting your god? Or maybe you like to bend over. Y'know, 10 commandments and all that. ;)

first off, i consider it extremely rude to mock someone's beliefs as you did in the above post.

i am not controlled by anything or anyone except my own common sense. you are ignorant of contemporary judaism, or you wouldnt have made such a statement.

no, i do not fear upsetting my "god". i do not have a "god". if the infinite could be angered by my actions, that would give me power over it. if i have power over it, i am above it (which i obviously am not).

im not sure what kind of reaction you want to get by asking me if i am a sodomist, but it is extremely childish, and quite frankly it does not belong on this forum.

and for your information, i am a noahide jew. i live by seven laws, not ten.
good job finding who the subject of your insults was before lumping him/her into a self created group.

grow up.

first off, i consider it extremely rude to mock someone's beliefs as you did in the above post.
I don't care what you consider or don't.
i am not controlled by anything or anyone except my own common sense. you are ignorant of contemporary judaism, or you wouldnt have made such a statement.
Sure, sure, I have no idea, speak on.
no, i do not fear upsetting my "god". i do not have a "god"
Well, then you are not a jew. Jews have a god, Jahve or whatever you spell it in your country. Or maybe you follow some new age sect?
if i have power over it, i am above it (which i obviously am not).
Of course you are. All gods are creations of man representing some or all dynamics of this universe in simbolic forms in order for those to be easier understood.
Your problem in judaism though is that you are stuck in the metaphor and don't see what that metaphor transcends.
im not sure what kind of reaction you want to get by asking me if i am a sodomist, but it is extremely childish, and quite frankly it does not belong on this forum
Just an expression used to portray sheepish obedience and pleasure from abuse nothing to do with sodomy.
and for your information, i am a noahide jew. i live by seven laws, not ten.
Ah, just like I guessed, a sectant. Plan to nail yourself to a cross too?
good job finding who the subject of your insults was before lumping him/her into a self created group.
My subject? A deformed man messed in his mind, whatever he calls himself to be makes no difference.
grow up.
Sure thing, honey, but it seems that you don't like S&M

1. then you wont care that i consider you a self righteous, ignorant ass.
2. thanks for your permission
3. i am a noahide jew. the fact that you dont understand this very important facet of judaism says that you know nothing of contemporary judaism. stop spreading your non-informed "facts" around, fool.
4. refer to #3.
5. childish, and not appropriate.
6. i am a gentile that converted to judaism. thats a noahide jew. you obviously have done NO research on the subject. christ was NOT a noahide jew.
7. i was the subject of your insults. or was the statement too hard for you to follow?
8. i am NOT your honey.

dont bother responding. i am not interested in your ill-informed brand of hate.

Relax, sweet bug, I'm just playing with your head. Rawr, I like this S&M with you, jew.

Why should I be sadder than those believing in their illusionous fantasies?
As I stated before: I'm fascinated of how this universe works, disintegration is a vital part of that.
For example, the absolute majority of the atoms on this planet are the same as when the planet was formed some 4.5 billion years ago, if it weren't for rearrangment of atoms it would all still be boiling rock, water vapour and lava, now the same atoms have assembled into forests, rivers, and all life that you see and will never see. And it's possible that some part of your body is of atoms that were a part of a t-rex. If stuff didn't change, atoms didn't rearrange, nothing would be as it is, no stars, no Earth, no life and no you. Humans are made of nuclear waste products of "dead" stars. Death must be, those who wish to live over all are egoists consciously or unconsciously against this universe, nature and all future generations.

I'm content with all of the existance. No fears, no sadness, no longing.
Are christians?

No, I mean sure Religion has some ties to it that might make some people unhappy, or whatever. My dad says that after he left the church he's never been so happy because of all the guilt he's been keeping for saying the lords name in vain and lieing and so on...There is a lot of guilt I guess, and that can bring some people down.
Heaven is supposed to be like paradise, so of course most Christians believe that they are going to heaven...Even though the gateway to hell is supposedly wide...
Anyway, we need the guilt I guess to keep us on track. Like today, when you were a child your parents would say "if you make straight A's then I'll take you out for ice cream" Or something like that. There is a price to pay in order to go to heaven, I suppose. And I guess we should feel bad if we break the rules, and yes maybe Christians aren't as happy because there all the time wondering if there winning the approval of God.
Atheist don't have to worry about thier after life so much because they don't have anything to worry about. Maybe people who aren't religious are happier. It's hard to say though.
I mean I do know some really happy Christians, their all the time smiling. But maybe it's just because they want to win approve of God and there not really that happy...That's real hard to say whose happier. I can see why either one would be happy/unhappy.

Why should I be sadder than those believing in their illusionous fantasies? ... I'm content with all of the existance. No fears, no sadness, no longing. Are christians?

Well, again, Avatar, we're not talking about you in particular or any other, single individual.

I'm trying to ask about your experiences with friends, acquintances, schoolmates, etc. Sure there are many who wouldn't conform to the norms. But, in general, taking everyone as a group ...I think religious people are happier than non-religious people.

And, by the way, I'm pretty amazed that you have no fears, no sadness and no longing. As I see it, that pretty much puts you outside the realm of even being human! ...don't it? Those "things" that you don't have, are actually part of the definition of being human.

Baron Max

Yeah, that's true.

avatar is obviously above us all.
isnt that obvious?

Since ignorance is a bliss, I guess religious people are happy- happily ignorant.

Religious people can say the same thing about atheists.

but ggazoo 99.9% of atheist come from a theist background therefore cannot be ignorant,
so it cannot be said of atheists.

Moderator comment -

People - enough with the ad hominem attacks - stick with attacking/debating the issues not the people.

Really, .....I think y'all are taking this topic WAAAAAAAAAAAY out of any sensible idea of it's basics. I/we don't care WHY religious people are happy or not, or whether they're dumber than a box of rocks; ditto for athiests. I'm simply talking about people being happy or happier. It has nothing to do with which religion or faith; it has nothing to do with where they are or how they live.

And I mean that question to be taken "in YOUR experience" ...your friends, your acquaintances, your family, your friends' families, etc.

.....Are religious people happier than non-religious people? ...IN YOUR EXPERIENCE. It seems to me that that is a YES or NO answer ....so how in hell did this become a personal attacking thread?????

Baron Max

Of two groups of people - one group religious, one group non-religious; of equal status in the community; with equal wealth; with equal intelligence ...is the religious group happier than the non-religious group?

It's been my 60-some years of observations that religious people are happier than the non-religious people. But let's face it, I don't know all that many people of the world! So the question still stands unanswered.
Actually the question has been studied by university surveys. What they have found is, considering all else equal (status, wealth, intelligence, etc.), the religious group will live longer than the non-religious group.

Another study on the various cultures that live in the United States found that the people who were happier and more content with their lives were the Amish people, a religious sect in the state of Pennsylvania.

In these studies they were not only analyzing who was happier but who was also less stressful.

IMHO, stress is a killer. ;)

Really, .....I think y'all are taking this topic WAAAAAAAAAAAY out of any sensible idea of it's basics. I/we don't care WHY religious people are happy or not, or whether they're dumber than a box of rocks; ditto for athiests. I'm simply talking about people being happy or happier. It has nothing to do with which religion or faith; it has nothing to do with where they are or how they live.

And I mean that question to be taken "in YOUR experience" ...your friends, your acquaintances, your family, your friends' families, etc.

.....Are religious people happier than non-religious people? ...IN YOUR EXPERIENCE. It seems to me that that is a YES or NO answer ....so how in hell did this become a personal attacking thread?????
*************
M*W: IN MY EXPERIENCE, I've never been happier in my life since I've been an atheist. It's like all questions and doubts come together. When I was a christian, and I was a believing christian, everybody I knew had problems, including me. The game plan was that we had a telephone prayer network. When somebody had a 'problem,' we would call our telephone prayer network and pray for that person's particular problem. In reality, it was a telephone gossip network. The calls would procede, and the faithful would then pray for the person with the problem. Eventually, everyone in the church knew who had a problem. Gossip traveled like a wildfire. There was no peace nor happiness within! It was a 'talk about your neighbor gossip fest.'

Atheism is different. I've learned so much more as an atheist. There is no one telling me what to believe or who to believe. I have peace in the fact that I've tried christianity and it failed, failed tremendously!

There is no god. To believe otherwise is fruitless, but its the ONLY way to know the truth.

It's tough to be happy when Gods are always pissed off. Is there at least one happy god out there, one that doesn't have a problem with what he/she created? All these gods need to go to anger management classes. Its only a false happiness when your god is constantly threatening your very existence. I think most Christians feel they'll be happier once they're dead, as strange as that may sound. They're happy to have that chance.

Remember...... Eternal happiness awaits those who use free will the way God wants you to.

I don't know if religious people are happier or not, but it sure seems that way. From my experience, most religious folk are some of the nicest people that you'd want to meet. And most (not all) atheists that I've met are bitter and cynical people.

I know I'd be happier with the comforts of religion.

I don't know about you, but I have way, way, way more things I want to do than I am going to be able to finish in the next 30-odd years I have before I am going to die.

And yet you think I am supposed to sit here and say, "yeah, death is fine, I don't care...it's just nature's way...nothing to be depressed about..."? Bullshit.

I don't want to die. It is not a fear of pain, it is that I do not wish my consciousness to end. I have a profound, deep sense of aversion to this. All this work, all this learning, just as I am starting to hit my stride and acquire some wisdom and see my kids acquire wisdom, then... nothing....? Places I will never get to see? Scientific discoveries of the future I will never know about? And I am not supposed to be bothered by that? Screw that. I'm bothered.

Remember Batty in Bladerunner? "I want more life, fucker." This is totally natural, and it is, as far as I am concerned, the single, overriding concern to us as humans.

I'll give you something else to think about:

About ten years ago, when I was very atheistic, the following event occured:

My son who was maybe five at the time, had started having horrible nightmares and would wake up screaming "I don't want to die! I don't want to die!" Now here is my wife and I (she was and is an atheist) trying to comfort our child.

The following is running through my mind: what do I say? "You are not going to die"? No, that would be lying to him,. He is going to die someday. Okay, I'll tell him "You are not going to die anytime soon"? No, that doesn't sound good at all...

What did I come up with? Nothing, really, just a lame "It's going to be all right..."

A religious parent has more tools at his disposal to deal with this.

It sure made me feel like shit as a parent.

I don't know if religious people are happier or not, but it sure seems that way.

Anyone who creates their own fantasies and lives them can't be anything else but happy since they can change their fantasies to suit their life.

From my experience, most religious folk are some of the nicest people that you'd want to meet. And most (not all) atheists that I've met are bitter and cynical people.

You've got it backwards there.

I guess that's why they say "ignorance is bliss".

It would of course stand to reason that religious people are happier. Us atheists have death to look forward to, while religious people get a life part II.

What they have found is, considering all else equal (status, wealth, intelligence, etc.), the religious group will live longer than the non-religious group

Are they living longer because of the limits imposed upon them by their religion? (i.e not being allowed to drink/smoke etc). Yes, I am aware many do do these things - but then I have not seen what kind of people were surveyed.

Us atheists have death to look forward to, while religious people get a life part II.
Religious ones too, but they misunderstand it and they interpret their religion wrong.
Most religions mean a spiritual afterlife after one "gets the message", not some ascending into heaven or something.

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
(Gospel of Thomas, 113)

p.s. I don't believe in any gods or have any religion and I don't see death to be something "bad". It is required for our world to continue.

Most religions mean a spiritual afterlife after one "gets the message", not some ascending into heaven or something.

This is seemingly not the case among religious people, or indeed the texts that they follow/believe.

From my experience, most religious folk are some of the nicest people that you'd want to meet.
Oh, yes, these are very nice people:
http://www.plumcreekmarketing.com/01toys/01images/fullsize/107002.jpg
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/inquisition/inquisition4.jpg
:rolleyes:

This is seemingly not the case among religious people, or indeed the texts that they follow/believe.
Yes, I'm well aware of that.

The problem is that for the centralised institutions of Chruch (any church, organised religion) it is more convenient that the sheep stay sheep and work for the church and its' agenda.
A man who has gotten into heaven is not so easily controllable as one that yearns to get into heaven.

Even the Gospel of Thomas has not been included in the main/official versions of Bible for centuries for exactly these reasons, altough it has the same status as any other part of the New Testament.

Ironically the people who best understand religions mostly are non-religious students or scientists who study mythologies, put work into cracking the nutshell of a belief system open. That is no task for your general redneck Bubba in Texas.

So it is that only those who get the message presumably get into heaven, but to get the message it is not enough to read a little book, you have to think and research, and that is what most religious people lack, because they believe without thinking, and they believe in the official interpretation of the church which may have other intentions for them.

Yes, I'm well aware of that

Then forgive me, but there was little point making your last statement. Whether the religious or not have got it wrong is not really of relevance to them being happier. I stated that they would be happier seeings as they get a life part II, (the way they see it). Of course they don't get a second life, a third, fourth or twenty ninth - but they believe they do, and I suppose that's all that counts when it comes to happiness.

The amusing thing is watching them defy all reason to try and keep that bubble from bursting.

Whether the religious or not have got it wrong is not really of relevance to them being happier.
Of course.
I said what I said to contribute more information to this discussion which might be of use in clarification of what the religious people generally are.

I stated that they would be happier seeings as they get a life part II, (the way they see it). Of course they don't get a second life, a third, fourth or twenty ninth - but they believe they do, and I suppose that's all that counts when it comes to happiness.

The amusing thing is watching them defy all reason to try and keep that bubble from bursting.

I don't think most religious folks have to 'defy all reason' - they believe what they believe and many of them give it no second thought. Most of them are not on messageboards such as this having to defend themselves.

And while I don't have a "belief" in an afterlife per se, I can see how it is possible, so I don't see why it is such a stretch to at least posit the possibility of an afterlife and have some degree of hope for it. There is nothing to lose in doing so - if my hope turns out to be misplaced, I won't be disappointed - I'll just be dead.

Avatar: Ok :D

Lerxt:

And while I don't have a "belief" in an afterlife per se, I can see how it is possible, so I don't see why it is such a stretch to at least posit the possibility of an afterlife and have some degree of hope for it. There is nothing to lose in doing so - if my hope turns out to be misplaced, I won't be disappointed - I'll just be dead.

But then there is just as much possibility that upon your death you reincarnate as a dung beetle, or perhaps a poor little starving ethiopian. Yes/no?

Further to which, there is something to lose in doing so. It's called reality.

Avatar: Ok :D

Lerxt:



But then there is just as much possibility that upon your death you reincarnate as a dung beetle, or perhaps a poor little starving ethiopian. Yes/no?

Further to which, there is something to lose in doing so. It's called reality.

As for the reincarnation question, I honestly don't know. I cannot even assign probabilities to these various scenarios. Given the complete lack of information to work with, I just hope for the best. What I refuse to do is be resigned.

Now, for your second point, what on earth do you mean? How do I "lose out on reality"? I do not actually have any religious beliefs. I am not sacrificing a 'normal' life in order to become a monk in a cave. I am not punishing my kids by making them live by some archaic religious code that seeks to thwart natural human desires and impulses. I live a very secular life, I try to make the most of every day, I assume that this life is the only one I will get.... but I still *hope* for something after.

How is that bad?

As for the reincarnation question, I honestly don't know. I cannot even assign probabilities to these various scenarios.

Then the same is also true of anything else that has absolutely no supporting evidence or value. I just find it odd that you consider one as "it's possible" and the other as "I honestly don't know".

Now, for your second point, what on earth do you mean? How do I "lose out on reality"? I do not actually have any religious beliefs. I am not sacrificing a 'normal' life in order to become a monk in a cave. I am not punishing my kids by making them live by some archaic religious code that seeks to thwart natural human desires and impulses. I live a very secular life, I try to make the most of every day, I assume that this life is the only one I will get.... but I still *hope* for something after.

How is that bad?

It depends how you follow up on that hope. Like many people, I could say I hope I win the lottery - which is seemingly ok as long as that 'hope' never actually intrudes on real life - and yet it can and often does. Good luck to you with your understanding that this life is the only one you get, but there are many many people that literally throw reality to the dogs for the sake of their hopes. I have had the misfortune of seeing people utterly destroyed by a failed hope. Once reality rears it's head and starts slapping away, people can become seriously distraught. Ok admittedly the only time reality could rear it's head, you wouldn't care much anyway - cause you'd be dead, but then from another perspective I have seen people, (with afterlife hopes), willing to commit suicide when this one starts getting them down. There are many negative effects to "hopes". With any luck you can keep that hope where it belongs.

Where's the happiness in this ?

http://www.saulmoran.com/shame/robomuslim.gif

Actually that pic would be funnier if the text was something like:

'Knight Industries 3000: Self detonates when comes in to range of the enemy, can't say: "The criminals are over there Michael", but it can say; "Infidel!"'.. etc etc etc

Then the same is also true of anything else that has absolutely no supporting evidence or value. I just find it odd that you consider one as "it's possible" and the other as "I honestly don't know".


Well, I'd say "it's possible" and "I honestly don't know" about both cases. I entertain the idea of an afterlife because it makes me feel better. I know it is a possibility, I know there are other possibilities. Like I said, I just hope for the best.


It depends how you follow up on that hope. Like many people, I could say I hope I win the lottery - which is seemingly ok as long as that 'hope' never actually intrudes on real life - and yet it can and often does. Good luck to you with your understanding that this life is the only one you get, but there are many many people that literally throw reality to the dogs for the sake of their hopes. I have had the misfortune of seeing people utterly destroyed by a failed hope. Once reality rears it's head and starts slapping away, people can become seriously distraught. Ok admittedly the only time reality could rear it's head, you wouldn't care much anyway - cause you'd be dead, but then from another perspective I have seen people, (with afterlife hopes), willing to commit suicide when this one starts getting them down. There are many negative effects to "hopes". With any luck you can keep that hope where it belongs.

That is some pretty extreme and desperate "hope." You cite examples where someone would alter the way they act to maximize their odds - I don't have that option. I do not think there is anything I can do that will influence the ultimate reality of whether or not there is something after death. So how can possibly act on it? How can it degrade my life? It cannot. Rather, it can make me a happier person. And that is substantial, it is important, it is not to be dismissed out of hand.

That is some pretty extreme and desperate "hope." You cite examples where someone would alter the way they act to maximize their odds - I don't have that option. I do not think there is anything I can do that will influence the ultimate reality of whether or not there is something after death. So how can possibly act on it?

By becoming deeply religious, following all of god's commands and orders, and giving up who you are in the "hope" that you shall attain afterlife.

pascals wager is a prime example of this. [PP] Better to believe there is and never find out, (because of death), than to believe there isn't, find out there is, and then suffer for it.

How can it degrade my life?

Again, it is all about perspective. Some people have turned religious, and due to their actions, (fundie actions admittedly), become a detriment to themselves, their children, and all around them - all because of a desire to go to a "possible" life part II.

By becoming deeply religious, following all of god's commands and orders, and giving up who you are in the "hope" that you shall attain afterlife.

pascals wager is a prime example of this. [PP] Better to believe there is and never find out, (because of death), than to believe there isn't, find out there is, and then suffer for it.

Again, it is all about perspective. Some people have turned religious, and due to their actions, (fundie actions admittedly), become a detriment to themselves, their children, and all around them - all because of a desire to go to a "possible" life part II.

Certainly 'going off the deep end' can be dangerous, so I wouldn't argue with you on that. But again, I'm not talking about 'belief' - I'm an agnostic. I don't believe in any of these things in the positive sense. I completely reject the judeo-christian ideas of god - sure, there is a sliver of a chance that such a god exists, but I find him unjust and ridiculuous, and I'd rather not have an afterlife than hang out with him - especially if it means acting like a moron in this life and giving up the things I like.

Again, there is nothing in my hope for me to act upon, so there is no danger.

You *can* have it both ways.

There is a great quote by Carl Sagan, to the effect that if your kid has cholera, you can either pray or you can treat her with medicine. Now if you were forced to make it either-or, you'd be quite insane (and crimninal) to choose prayer.

But we are leaving out the third option: you could do both.

And there is nothing wrong in doing that.

I'll also add that there plenty of examples of intelligent, well-educated, reasonable, scientific people who also happen to be religious. People who are not fanatics, who lead full, loving lives, and who have thought about all these things in depth. That is an existence proof right there.

Are Religious People Happier?

Ignorance is bliss !

Are Religious People Happier?

Ignorance is bliss !

While the majority of religious people throughout time have demonstrated great ignorance, not all of them have.

There are religious people who are as intelligent as any atheist, and who have contributed just as much to this world.

I certainly hope everyone here is intelligent and honest enough not to paint every member of a particular group with the same broad brush?

U cant be intelligent and religious at the sametime.

U cant be intelligent and religious at the sametime.

LOL

maybe religious people are happier. whether they labor under an illusion or not, maybe it bears out the old saying "ignorance is bliss".

this was how i made up my mind:

According to a recent study published in The American Journal of Psychiatry religious affiliation is associated with significantly lower levels of suicide compared to religiously unaffiliated people, atheists and agnostics. Source: Kanita Dervic, Maria A. Oquendo, Michael F. Grunebaum, Steve Ellis, Ainsley K. Burke, and J. John Mann. "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt" (161:2303-2308, December 2004).

Full article online: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

ABSTRACT:

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim's social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.

METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found.

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.

.....
CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention. So what can U say about Religious people commiting mass suicides ?

So what can U say about Religious people commiting mass suicides ?

i think they must have made a distinction between religions recognized on a worldwide scale and cults or extreme isolated fringe groups. i dont recall any non-cult members committing mass suicide in recent years. however you never know, if you factor in suicide bombers, i think maybe the statistic would change a little.

U cant be intelligent and religious at the sametime.

And that is most intelligent thing I've ever read from you. Cheers.

I am very happy and I'm not at all religous. I have been this way for many decades. You don't need religon to have fun.