It looks like atheists outweigh the Christians on this board by quite a bit. So, at the risk of getting flamed, I just wanted to pose a few general questions for the non-believers, and would love to get your opinions/answers on them: 1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe? 2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people? 3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense? 4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world? 5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos. 6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components? 7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled? 8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner? 9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)? 10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental? Again, just curious. Looking forward to the responses! Source: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/questions-for-skeptics.html
ok.,ill address only this one because i am lazy and im sure other people will have a field day with the rest. imagine you have 100000000 packs of cards,and each packs of cards has 4 suits but the suits are numbered by pack (ie.clubs1,clubs2).shuffle these cards, 5200000000 of them and then deal them out.what is the probability that they would come out in a particular order?very very very low.analogous to the odds of the earth tilt/right star etc etc.and yet it happens,and will continue to happen as long as you deal out cards.intelligent design assumes that humans are a desired result (a little arrogant i think).if you have no expected result then the probability does not factor.
Would you care to show how the universe is designed and ordered when we know so little about our own planet and corner of it let alone the rest? I happen to be very into archaeology and there is very little evidence of truth in the stories, there are plenty of ancient myths and legends that we attach little truth to (but all contain reference to real places and occasionally real people), just because it mentions a place we know exists or an ancient person we've recovered, it adds nothing to the truth of anything else, many fictional stories contain real places. Care to share the evidence? Morals were not universal at the times of religions coming about and im not sure they are even these days, some people believe killings ok, some dont, some peoples used to sacrifice people to the gods etc Care to show our universal morals? If you're asking why be good then its simply because i believe this life is all i and anyone else recieve, so why should i ruin it for someone else or have it ruined by others? 1. What are you talking about? 2. Where are the assumptions of A) Order and B) Chaos, coming from? I Prefer not to claim knowledge of the unknown, as opposed to attributing it to an unknown entity and further complicating things unnecessarily. If you're talking about how the universe started, it could just as easily have been pink unicorns as god, if you're talking about life then it started with very uncomplex components of single cellular organisms and evolved. Anyone can predict a thousand events and if you wait long enough most will come true or be interpreted as true, this is again something which is subjective to someones viewpoint (nostradamus made several predictions people believe to be true), but please feel free to share these events n we'll go through them. Again this is how you see things, are you aware that many people here have not had things satisfactorily answered, but if you feel the need, go through your answers to our supposed questions on contradictions(be warned if you're talking bout these damn websites i've come across then you wont last long round here). Please provide supporting evidence, also the simple answer would be they didnt. Incredible odds? I might ask someone else to correct me on these maths because i barely remember them but here goes.... We are but one planet, in a group of about 10(yes we dont know exactly because of our definition of planet), around one star, in a galaxy of say 100 billion stars? and estimate of 125 billion galaxies in the universe.... Now would you care to rephrase incredible odds? Im sorry for encouraging him Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I don't think intelligence is the best answer behind it. The analogy of a clock is proof of intelligence isn't a good once since we know a clock was made by a human. We attribute this inside-the-box thinking to a 'God' which is niave. I think the prospect of 'intelligence' creating the universe is an interesting philisophical question... but as a religious concept, it doesn't interest me at all, I don't need an imaginary friend, or comfort to hide the grisly aspects of life. Well it is difficult to sort the bullshit (and there is a lot of it where Christians are concerned) from things that are worth reading. I have no doubt there are things which can be learned from the bible which were around at the time the guys wrote it, such as buildings, mountains etc... but I understand that the bible is largely fictional stories, and I base this on the fact that the Bible is littered with obvious fantasies which can be proven false. If anyone says the bible is 100% true then they are kidding themselves in persuit of this fantasy. Why just humans? Why not animals with complex social behaviours. Animals and humans who live together behave this way because they need to, for herds to work together to survive and for civilisation to keep order. Nobody can do what they want. Not everyone has the need to create a loving creator to get fulfillment out of life. I don't know about you, but a "random arrangement of molecules" is more amazing and inspiring than a crazy notion of a loving God with a beard and a penis. Who knows? If there was no 'order' then what we call personality wouldn't exist. Don't know, but it happens. I think you are talking bullshit. You will have to prove me wrong on this and I don't think you can do it via very vague scriptures. If one crazy guy writes "The son of God will grace the Earth", or whatever... And hundreds of years later another crazy guy goes "I am the son of God", is that a prophecy or just two crazy guys who are obsessed with a fictional character? Like I said, Christians rarely answer anything in an intelligible and credible manner, so it's difficult to take in what's worth absorbing. Especially by people who think the Earth is 6,000 years old, and that there was a great flood in which all carnivores and herbivores were put in one boat two by two Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thats what organized religion does. Now this totally highlights your childlike views. You simply do not understand that that's just the way it happened. If Mars was a bit bigger it could support life too... clumps of rock that attract more rock to form what is called planets, moons, asteroids in whatever position gravity takes them to. I really want you to explain why the postion of Earth has to be the result of a hand of God, this is utterly rediculous to me and is why I will never take people like you seriously. There are 70 billion trillion stars in the visible universe, some of those stars will have a planet were conditions are right, and others won't. It's not like life around this star is unique, we see planets forming around other stars nearby showing that it is a natural phenomenon of the universe, organic compounds are widespread throughout the universe, along with water and all essential ingrediants life are there, our star is not unique in that this is the only place life is possible. Fair enough if you want to think God made life possible in the universe, but don't act like such a child that you think God put Earth right there in it's orbit and made Adam and Eve, etc etc... Facts continue to show that we are not as special as what religious fanatics like you want to believe. Go read the Koran, God wrote that too Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
People like me? In all due respect, you don't even know me. I'm not even sure about Adam and Eve, I just poised these questions for discussion, and bring a different point of view. I thought this was a science forum, not an atheist only one. What amuses me the most is that atheists often call religious people "preachy"... works both ways. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi ggazoo, Great questions and I'll communicate my 'non-believer' answers below! This particular question makes the assumption that design exists. To date, I am not aware of any evidence that suggests this and if you know of any then by all means present it. Order-wise, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that 'disorder' exists in reality (it's at best a subjective interpretation). Some of it has historical accuracy and some of it is simply fantasy that is contradicted by reality (genesis being a great example of the latter). This question assumes that moral sense is universal and therefore everyone is in complete agreement of morality. Clearly this is not the case. There does exist real phenomenoa of combinations of altruism and exploitation (or absence of). Interpretation of this is typically the result of emotional processing and people will assign labels of 'right' and 'wrong' to various forms and degrees of these behaviors. The labels are usually constantly changing throughout a person's life. There is nothing to indicate that man is a random arrangement of molecules. If we think about it, we are points of self-awareness in reality and this suggests that reality is pre-disposed towards producing conciousness with energy and matter (which are technically the same thing... one version is uncompressed while the other is compressed). The human brain would be a great example of this (chemical -matter- and electrical charge -enregy-). What motivates me to 'care' is my genetic behavior, my learned behavior -the positive and negative reinforcement throughout my life-, my knowedge, and my maturity. As far as living honorably, it all depends on how the word is defined (it's fairly subjective) so I really don't have an answer until the definition is resolved. I don't understand the first have of the question. Regarding order from chaos, I don't know of any instance of Chaos in reality. It doesn't appear to be any more than a subjective human interpretation. I can only speak for life that we're aware of on Earth. Reality is made up of rules and processes. On Earth, they resulted in life and evolution is the most accurate model of how this happens. Those 'essential components' that present life forms maintain are the result environmental pressures and adaptations to those pressures over very long periods of time. I don't know. Give me an example of recent event that was accurately predicted by the bible in detail and I'll see if I can help answer the question. Nope. I have seen attempts to adapt interpretations of the bible to the present understanding of reality. In the end, the contradictions of human writings don't really matter. What does matter is evidence. Is there evidence that 'God' exists? To my knowledge, none has been provided to date. The question does make the assumption that there is a unified message. After some biblical study, I don't agree this is the case; however, to answer the question more generically I would have to say it was likely collaboration? It's not impossible to take the work of one person and add to it without ever meeting that person (happens with open source software at times). For our solar system, the odds were 100% in our favor. If we're talking about all galaxies then I would have ask do we know enough to explicitly say what the odds are? I'm reading about new discoveries all the time and about limitations concerning how far and well we can see.
Thanks Crunchy - appreciate the response. I should probbaly get back to work, so let me just address this one. Here a link from the same source where I found the questions: http://www.christiananswers.net/menu-at1.html#contradictions I'm in no way trying to be envoke my views on everyone ( a few other people from the other side of the proverbial fence have already done that), I'm just trying to throw out some different ways of looking at things. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You're welcome. I never thought you were trying to envoke your views on anyone. Seemed like basic Q&A to me.
BTW, I saw the contradictions site. I went straight to the foundation claim of 'God's existince. I found anthropomorphization or reality, incorrect understanding of evolution, incorrect understanding of biology... and the list goes on. The site was pretty verbose and I would invite that any of the 'God' existence notions be presented in this forum for a little analysis (pick and choose anything you would like).
Yeah I read that too... I'll state for the record right now that I believe in God, but I also believe in forms of evolution.
There isn't any design or order in the universe, there is only the results of cause and effect. We call out parts of the whole and say they are different, but they are the same, all part of the same event, ie. The Time-Space Continuum. How do you explain the low degree of "order" in your bowels? There is some historical fact in the bible. Stories of real events got retold and embellished, just like stories do in every culture. That doesn't mean that the biblical account is totally accurate. Even the four main gospels tell a different version of events. Morality comes with society, it's the formalized rules of engagement with your fellow humans. The motivation is selfish in the end, since behaving in a moral way minimizes danger. Man is much more than a random arrangement, but much less than the image of a supreme being. Care about society and honor are moral values that society has come up with to make it run more smoothly. It's effectiveness is less than perfect. Order is inherent within chaos, they create and support one another. Personality is an adaptation of the animal to it's environment. The story of animal evolution is too complex to go into here. There is no fully accurate scientific account of the origin of life. I do not believe there are irreducible components to anything. That is a biased question. The bible is like a rorschach test in which people can see what they want to see. Science makes much more accurate prophecies, only they call them hypothesis or predictions. Some bible predictions are the result of rational deduction, like saying the great cities will fall, there will be violence and bloodshed, ect. These things are a safe bet. Credible to whom? Anyway, it's the interpretations, not the contradictions that bother me. The bible was compiled in one place, I believe it was the Synod of Jamnia or some such thing, in Rome. Any gospels or stories with different interpretations were systematically destroyed by heresy hunters. The unified message is thus artificial, and was politically motivated. It's called anthropocentric bias. If the Earth did not have an orbit favorable to life, we would not be here discussing it. Also, life evolves to fit it's environment. That was fun! It feels good to make declarative statements.
As raw concepts 'God' and evolution aren't contradictory; although, if we take the Christian 'God' then there is clear contradiction. If it would be ok for me to ask, what is your reasoning for believing in the existence of 'God'?
You're right. It's a human behavior that affects everyone; although, I would bet the farm that it's seen more frequently in religious circles... something about Sunday mass tells me this is so Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!.
gazzo i provide you some answer from my perspective. i am a theist that has no formal beliefs and follows no particular religion. some questions i do not address because they are simply not applicable to my understanding. basic evolutionary processes, survival of the fittest is equally as applicable to chemical combinations and planetary schemas as it is to animals and humans, what works is good/useful/strong, etcetra survives, what does not work is bad Poor/weak/unecessary it fails, it does not survive. the universe appears to be flawless because the flaws have been eradicated by their own inherent weakness. from humanities social conscience. the emotianal connection to other creatures and the universe itself. for the love and respect of the harmonious organisation of those molecules( those that are my own and those that are not) and the arrangements and harmony of the universe as a whole. this is called conditioning. it is a similar process to that described in the answer to question 1. when considering conditioning in respect of personality there has been a lot of inteference from other personalities from whom you have inherited their strengths and weaknesses. again the answer to question 1 covers this. what is successful in creating sustaining and enhancing. creates, sustains and enhances. that which is not, does not. theyre not coincidental, the position of the planet is due to the position of other planets. the cosmos evolved as a system just as the arrangement of molecules did in above question. any substances or forces that where beneficial for the evolving system where integrated into the system. those forces or substances that do not integrate into the system did not reamain in the system. that is why the balance of force of the cosmos as a major system is perfect organised to enhance and sustain its own system and any minor systems of organisation that it can sustain. this is pretty much the cause given for question 1. none of my answer either deny or necessitate a GOD. only a principle of Attraction which could also be called LOVE.
Of course there is design, just look at your body. Are you blind or what? You can't see the design? What caused our bodies to look like they do? And it's not just the outer design, but also the things we can do, like think and feel. It can only be explained by a "designer".
Sure, I'd be happy to answer that, so thanks for even asking. I've seen a lot of posts on this and other sites attempting to refute God's exsistence. Whether it's a lack of understanding as to why we believe, or replies from people who think they have all the answers, I'm not sure. What I've learned is that at the end of the day, either you believe or you don't. A few people even went as far as to say things like "There is no God - that's fact". Well, I got news for you - it's not a 'fact' anymore than it isn't. I can totally understand theories and scientific assumptions, they actually fascinate me. But I'll be the first one to tell you that I think the BIG misassumption is that it's God vs Science... I think they go hand in hand, in that you can't have one without the other. As to why I believe in God... well, I've lost people in my life who were close to me, most noteably my dad when I was 13, and more recently my father-law (just last year about 4 months before our wedding). I guess a big part of it is the only way that I have a chance of seeing them again is when it's my turn to go. Does that mean it's a fear of death - that I'm clinging to a man made fantasy as an only chance of seeing lost loved ones? I've been told that (just search these forums), but I can't believe it. It's hard to describe. I've tried, trust me - again, just search the forums. lol At the risk of gerneralizing, I think most atheists have a hard time accepting anything that they can't physically prove or see. So, the logical assumption is that it can't be there. And you know what? I totally get that and can see why people think that way - I mean, look at this world that we live in. But there's much more to it than that for me. I grew up in a Christian household, and no, they weren't "lies passed down to me from my parents". That's how I was brought up and I wouldn't change it for anything. If you do believe, it can be an amazing thing... you just to open your mind up to the possibilty. I'm not a church-going Bible-thumper, but when I went with my family over the holidays, there was an immense feeling of love and belonging that I can't explain. I wasn't hallucinating, I wasn't brainwashed... I just... know. And lastly, it's my faith that keeps me going... whether I'm having a bad day at work, or had a fight with my wife, knowing that there is more to this life helps put everything in perspective. For those reading this post thanks for taking the time to do so. For those who want to quote me and try and dissect eveything that I said, feel free... you won't change my mind. Peace.
1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe? What design? What order? 2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people? What arechaeological documentation? 3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense? Sociology, although I've not heard of a "universal" moral sense. 4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world? The simple premise of not doing harm to others. 5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos. What order? 6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components? Evolution. 7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled? It doesn't, so they haven't. 8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner? No, I'm not aware of that and have yet to see it. 9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)? The bible is not consistent nor contains a unified message. 10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental? What incredible odds? Does this refer to the fact that theists believe the universe was created for their entertainment?
1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe? Evolution of myriad variables 2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people? Ancient myths designed by clever and powerful men that evolved and were fostered by more clever and powerful men and all for the sake of POWER over less clever and less powerful men, women and children. 3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense? At its most basic, the concept of survival and co-operation, so in that sense some things, like murder and theft are taboo in a more universal way, but many other ‘morals’ are religiously based, simply because religion had such an immense power over millennia. Not all ‘morals’ are universal. 4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world? Most do not live honourably, but if there is an answer to that, then look at my answer to question 3. 5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos. Same as answer 1 6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components? Ditto 7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled? Similar futures have been prophecised in other ‘holy’ books of different religions. Prophecies go back a long, long time. The idea that some have been realised is an illusion and subject to interpretation. 8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner? By Christian zealot scholars in order to appease other Christians or would-be believers, but those same contradictions are still open to challenge by non Christian zealot scholars. 9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)? That’s the first I’ve heard of this, but maybe you are talking about the various Jewish, Roman, Greek and English EDITORS of the bible ‘concept’ book 10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental? Why not?
