Younger Dryas Hypothesis - The whole picture

Youve got nothing so far.

Post 138 and counting.

Just clarifying that is, indeed, the zaniness you are espousing.

To be clear: you suppose that,
~12,500 years ago,
- i.e. while modern neolithic humans were practising agriculture
- the crust of the Earth,
- not the whole Earth, just the crust - nevertheless the entire crust
- as a single unit,
- from Greenland all the way down to Antarctica,
- just sort of slid around by 15 degrees.

Like ... someone picking up a glass snow globe I guess.


Well you have there misunderstanding with the poles. The north pole was in Greenland and moved to it's modern position.
The south pole today is like in the center of Antarctica, but it was before on the far eastern side of the continent! In relation to the movement of the north pole, of course, as the earth's crust moved as a whole solid unit, yes. The different tectonic plates pushed eachother, that may have resulted in the formation of other new mountain ranges then the Himalayas.
 
Ok, if you got a simpler and better explanation for the End of the Ice age, Permafrost regions in Siberia, Alaska and Canada, extinction of mammoths, and arctic seals on the Lake Baikal, for example, then let us see it.
Sure. The beginning of the Holocene. Permafrost in Siberia, Alaska and Canada. Arctic conditions on most of the planet during the ice age. Lots of mammoths - then extinction when the temperature rose too fast for them to adapt, and humans started hunting them.
 
Sure. The beginning of the Holocene. Permafrost in Siberia, Alaska and Canada. Arctic conditions on most of the planet during the ice age. Lots of mammoths - then extinction when the temperature rose too fast for them to adapt, and humans started hunting them.

Erm, looks like you are trying to troll me. No offense, but what kind of argument is that "beginning of the Holocene" for the very rapid rise in temperature in Greenland (as we know exactly). Because other parts of the Earth had no warming but cooling actually.

And the next one even more better: "Permafrost in Siberia, Alaska and Canada" just for the permafrost. Where did it come from? Do all the frozen water masses belong into the soil? Does the overall shape of it on the northern part of the globe not tell us anything about it's possible origin?

"Arctic conditions on most of the planet during the ice age" is just wrong, somewhere it was hotter, somewhere colder... (earth's crust shift!)

"Mammoths - then extinction when the temperature rose too fast for them to adapt, and humans started hunting them." That doesn't explain why we find the mammoths frozen in permafrost while they were almost alive, as their flesh didn't erode! It's known that dogs ate the flesh of the mammoths found in Siberian permafrost...
 
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Sure. The beginning of the Holocene. Permafrost in Siberia, Alaska and Canada. Arctic conditions on most of the planet during the ice age. Lots of mammoths - then extinction when the temperature rose too fast for them to adapt, and humans started hunting them.

How came the arctic seals to Lake Baikal and it's fresh waters also was just ignored... And I didn't ask for more to explain...

When we are ready, I would go on and talk about the better model of continental drift and Earth in whole.
But I really do not know if it's worth it here, as I see, that would really take months to discuss with that tempo here.
 
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May be I heard about that earlier, not so sure, but that would actually mean that my simple explanation of all the evidence, I posted already, with just one crust shift by 15 degrees, back 12 thousand years ago, would be correct then!
It is not a simple explanation. It raises more questions than it addresses. That crust shift of yours couldn't have happened by magic (or maybe it could, who knows?). It couldn't have happened without colossal upsets to climate all over the world. We're talking super earthquakes, super-volcanoes, super-tsunamis, massive liquidation of the surface to magma, etc.

Ok, if you got a simpler and better explanation for the End of the Ice age, Permafrost regions in Siberia, Alaska and Canada, extinction of mammoths, and arctic seals on the Lake Baikal, for example, then let us see it. Just for that, but there is way more...
Yes. Climate change. It happens. We know it happens. It's happened many, many times in Earth's history.

But so far, we just stayed on the discussion of the earth's crust shift, which I see as a proved one!
OK, you think you've proved yor idea. You're a fool.
 
It is not a simple explanation. It raises more questions than it addresses. That crust shift of yours couldn't have happened by magic (or maybe it could, who knows?). It couldn't have happened without colossal upsets to climate all over the world. We're talking super earthquakes, super-volcanoes, super-tsunamis, massive liquidation of the surface to magma, etc.


Yes. Climate change. It happens. We know it happens. It's happened many, many times in Earth's history.


OK, you think you've proved yor idea. You're a fool.

It all happened, but am not so sure about super-volcanoes... Even if there were eruptions of some super-volcanoes, they would still stay in shadow of the gigantic comet impact (it's pure magic) and it's debris to fly many thousands of kilometers.
The massive liquidation of the surface took also place, but not exactly to magma, but something the same hot and liquid, by the debris after the impact. That is how the biggest deserts on Earth occured.

It raises more questions in your mind, because it forces to review all your so called "known facts"... But they are very poorly explained with your old theories, and not nice and simple with just one earth's crust shift by 15 degrees.
I mean, let's take for example the origin of water on our planet, ok? There is an explanation by the official science, that it was brought to the Earth by meteorites with some portion of ice in them. You see, there is an explanation that you can just take and be happy with, but for someone who may have the ability to think and use his brain, it may be not enough, or just total crap when you see all the oceans, that occupy 71% of the surface of the planet and no loss of landmass on it. But I am talking already about some things out of the better model...

Again, I could go more in detail, and bring dozens of facts about the mammoths found in the permafrost region of northern Siberia, that even Darwin couldn't explain... yes, he had a try with explaining the evidence we have on Siberian mammoths, but failed... And, of course, anyone on the forum will fail by explaining it with the known official things they tell us in school.

Quote from the book "The pole shift that sank Atlantis":
Charles Darwin, who denied the occurrence of continental catastrophes in the past, in a letter to Sir Henry Howorth admitted that the extinction of mammoths in Siberia was for him an insoluble problem. J. D. Dana, the leading American geologist of the second half of the last century, wrote: “The encasing in ice of huge elephants, and the perfect preservation of the flesh, shows that the cold finally became suddenly extreme, as of a single winter's night, and knew no relenting afterward.”In the stomachs and between the teeth of the mammoths were found plants and grasses that do not grow now in northern Siberia. “The contents of the stomachs have been carefully examined; they showed the undigested food, leaves of trees now found in Southern Siberia, but a long way from the existing deposits of ivory. Microscopic examination of the skin showed redblood corpuscles, which was a proof not only of a sudden death,but that the death was due to suffocation either by gases or water,evidently the latter in this case. But the puzzle remained to account for the sudden freezing up of this large mass of flesh soas to preserve it for future ages.”

It's hard to learn something new, specially on things you already thought you knew for good, isn't it? :biggrin:
 
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The massive liquidation of the surface took also place, but not exactly to magma, but something the same hot and liquid, by the debris after the impact. That is how the biggest deserts on Earth occured.
No it isn't. You're just making stuff up.

It raises more questions in your mind, because it forces to review all your so called "known facts"... But they are very poorly explained with your old theories, and not nice and simple with just one earth's crust shift by 15 degrees.
I mean, let's take for example the origin of water on our planet, ok? There is an explanation by the official science, that it was brought to the Earth by meteorites with some portion of ice in them. You see, there is an explanation that you can just take and be happy with, but for someone who may have the ability to think and use his brain, it may be not enough, or just total crap when you see all the oceans, that occupy 71% of the surface of the planet and no loss of landmass on it. But I am talking already about some things out of the better model...
OK, we've just wandered back into Conspiracy Theory stuff. In fact, everything you proffer as your ideas seems to be predicated on this wild idea of "official science" and how they're oppressing your creative thinking.


There is forum for Conspiracies. I'll apply to have this moved there.

I am enjoying reading a book right now way better then having this sort of discussion.
I hope it's a primer on basic science. Maybe follow it up with a primer on paleo-geology.
 
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Oh well, this forum has the right to do whatever it thinks is best for it's reputation. I have enough to make my opinion.
Darwin and Wegener will have to end up there aswell for not being proved for more then half and whole century of being official, all over.
There is already a new theory to replace one of them, way more precise one, but why bother with it, if you can be happy with old one!
Do I care? NOPE, it's your forum! All I hoped for I already got! Have a nice time, I take a break
 
[...] Quote from the book "The pole shift that sank Atlantis":

Charles Darwin, who denied the occurrence of continental catastrophes in the past, in a letter to Sir Henry Howorth admitted that the extinction of mammoths in Siberia was for him an insoluble problem. J. D. Dana, the leading American geologist of the second half of the last century, wrote: “The encasing in ice of huge elephants, and the perfect preservation of the flesh, shows that the cold finally became suddenly extreme, as of a single winter's night, and knew no relenting afterward.”In the stomachs and between the teeth of the mammoths were found plants and grasses that do not grow now in northern Siberia. “The contents of the stomachs have been carefully examined; they showed the undigested food, leaves of trees now found in Southern Siberia, but a long way from the existing deposits of ivory. Microscopic examination of the skin showed redblood corpuscles, which was a proof not only of a sudden death,but that the death was due to suffocation either by gases or water,evidently the latter in this case. But the puzzle remained to account for the sudden freezing up of this large mass of flesh soas to preserve it for future ages.”

Just as those who make their living from social oppression conspiracies want to pretend that things like aristocracy, slavery, etc never ended (i.e., progressophobia), likewise many creationists love to shun the contemporary status of things and reference old or outdated texts. (Only alluding to creationists here as a possible, original source for this approach.)

At any rate, no need for sudden and widespread catastrophes. Mammoths were adapted to severe cold -- it was their habitat. The most well-preserved specimens died when the climate was colder, and accordingly there are arguably fewer or more degraded instances of such during the periods when it was milder.

The maturity of the vegetation found in their stomachs indicates times of death in the colder autumn rather than spring. Which coincides with their having often fallen through ice that had not thickened sufficiently yet -- many are found near rivers and in ancient locations before a river changed its course.

Even today, the remains of both animals and humans are preserved in arctic spots like Svalbard.

  • Why dying is forbidden in the Arctic

    INTRO: It is forbidden to die in the Arctic town of Longyearbyen. Should you have the misfortune to fall gravely ill, you can expect to be despatched by aeroplane or ship to another part of Norway to end your days.

    And if you are terminally unlucky and succumb to misfortune or disease, no-one will bury you here. The town's small graveyard stopped accepting newcomers 70 years ago, after it was discovered that the bodies were failing to decompose.

    Corpses preserved by permafrost have since become objects of morbid curiosity. Scientists recently removed tissue from a man who did die here. They found traces of the influenza virus which carried him and many others away in an epidemic in 1917.
 
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Progressophobia? Ah right, that is the case when you talk about a more precise model that will explain more things then the old one...
You have in the west just any explanation for not talking about mistakes made in the past and present, right? :biggrin: I do NOT care. That will not make any impact on science at all, as in the science world science always wins. Anyone wants any other outcome here? To me, it looks so, but I don't have anything to worry about. Again, have a nice time, I take a break for a while, and do whatever you want to do with the topic of discussion
 
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Progressophobia? Ah right, that is the case when you talk about a more precise model that will explain more things then the old one...
You have in the west just any explanation for not talking about mistakes made in the past and present, right? :biggrin: I do NOT care. That will not make any impact on science at all, as in the science world science always wins. Anyone wants any other outcome here? To me, it looks so, but I don't have anything to worry about. Again, have a nice time, I take a break for a while, and do whatever you want to do with the topic of discussion
Bye.
 
... in the science world science always wins.
That's what happening here, yes.

We currently have overwhelming evidence for climate change, advancing and receding ice sheets - from a dozen different disciplines from paleo-geology to paleo-bology and everything in between.

There is no such thing as "official science" - that's called paranoia. What there is is "scientific consensus" - that's many, many many studies throughout multiple disciplines that all independently - and corroboratively - point to the same historical events.

To be quite clear: nobody is oppressing you. Nobody is stopping you from saying all of the things you wish to say. You'll notice that there has been zero moderator interference, because that's how free speech works on the internet.

All that's happening is that you are proposing an idea that you have been unwilling or unable to adequately defend with even the barest of facts. You have a long, long way to go to get to a hypothesis that even holds together - let alone one that rises anywhere near the levels that will begin to overturn the mounation of evidence we have.

Now that's enough whining.

You have had every opportunity to make your case. We've listened to you, and nobody has stopped you. We're now at post 150+ and all you're moaning about is how all the other kids are mean to you.
 
Good morning :biggrin: Oh boy, we got something's here...
Well, me leaving or taking a break, what is good for you aswell, is not science actually. You thought already you could defeat me with childish accusations, without any single argument and fact, and actually the same thing repeats itself again now. I do whatever is best in my opinion to do, and that is leaving you alone for a while. Chances are low, but the time might come, when you are ready to talk science. I don't care, it's your forum here, told you that
 
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