Worship

[wesmorris]

Honestly, what the crap is with worship?

I was stumbling on the net and ran across this:

http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#3gISJM/www.doctorhugo.org/gandhi.html/

"Seven Blunders of the World"

1. Wealth without work

2. Pleasure without conscience

3. Knowledge without character

4. Commerce without morality

5. Science without humanity

6. Worship without sacrifice

7. Politics without principle

—Mahatma Gandhi

Which seemed pretty sensible and in line with some of my own thoughts but on scanning it a few times, point 6 stood out.

Why worship at all?

Honestly the notion of worship disgusts me. I think it denigrates both the object of worship and more, the person doing the worship.

I kind of get it, but only from an analytical perspective like "it's an emotional need" of many people, that comes from "cultural inheritance", basically - though I suspect that it's just a phenomenon of humanity in general. By that I mean, that even today "some are just born with it".

Perhaps it's just something to fill an emotional void in people but people with this void seem... well, sort of pathetic to me. I don't mean that in a cruel sense but more like something to pity, which is sort of cruel itself I suppose. Meh.

The thing is people are what they are and fuck if there's much to do about it, so I suppose even opening a conversation on it is utterly moot besides entertainment value. Perhaps there's something to be learned, but I can't see it yet.

I really loath the notion of worship. It sincerely grosses me out.

 

[Bishadi]

WOW!

i often thought of school(learning) as worshipping truth

that humility to 'not knowing' is humbling

and then if all the time spent by people 'worchipping' was in planting trees, the world would be a greener place. (in fact, that might be scary)

but my view is that to honor reality, then to be responsible for each action would be homage to existence. Basically, that i wish not to do bad (be selfish) by choice.

Like being responsible for ones actions and then if we know not what the 'correct' actions are, many will assemble in seeking (going to church)

or like i opened up, i often thought of school(learning) as worshipping truth

that humility to 'not knowing' is humbling

worchipping like many are taught is submission to a belief, not a god

 

[S.A.M.]

Guess you'll never be Gandhi

 

[parmalee]

honestly, i'm not entirely sure of what "worship" means--nor what gandhi intended by it. i think i read his autobiography (or maybe it was a biography? meh, what's the difference? nico made no distinction--she had someone else write her autobiography (richard witts)) long, long ago, but i don't know whether or not he got into worship.

does worship entail asking for something? or is it simply giving thanks for something? or is it an avowal of obedience?

for that matter, "sacrifice" invites some varied interpretations as well.

 

[wynn]

6. Worship without sacrifice
...
I really loath the notion of worship. It sincerely grosses me out.

You live in this Universe, you breathe its air, eat its food, take up its space ... and you don't think there is some need to make some gesture of acknowledging this generosity?

 

[parmalee]

You live in this Universe, you breathe its air, eat its food, take up its space ... and you don't think there is some need to make some gesture of acknowledging this generosity?

for all we know, this could very well be all of the "sacrifice" which is demanded.

 

[Bishadi]

You live in this Universe, you breathe its air, eat its food, take up its space ... and you don't think there is some need to make some gesture of acknowledging this generosity?

sure

be responsible for all your action

that................ is equally true

 

[wesmorris]

You live in this Universe, you breathe its air, eat its food, take up its space ... and you don't think there is some need to make some gesture of acknowledging this generosity?

Generosity is sentient beings can have.

I didn't ask to be here, though I am glad that I am.

I appreciate existing and all but feel no obligation to "worship" a god damned thing, period.

I think it's basically retarded to associate the notion of "generosity" with "Universe". Generosity is a human term that doesn't apply to a self-regulated, unwillful system like "Universe".

 

[wesmorris]

Guess you'll never be Gandhi

Well eventually maybe. We all apparently die at some point. Perhaps all the dead are the same - at least in that they're dead.

 

[wesmorris]

WOW!

i often thought of school(learning) as worshipping truth

that humility to 'not knowing' is humbling

and then if all the time spent by people 'worchipping' was in planting trees, the world would be a greener place. (in fact, that might be scary)

but my view is that to honor reality, then to be responsible for each action would be homage to existence. Basically, that i wish not to do bad (be selfish) by choice.

Like being responsible for ones actions and then if we know not what the 'correct' actions are, many will assemble in seeking (going to church)

or like i opened up, i often thought of school(learning) as worshipping truth

that humility to 'not knowing' is humbling

worchipping like many are taught is submission to a belief, not a god

respect, admire - sure. worship? no.

 

[wynn]

Generosity is sentient beings can have.

I didn't ask to be here, though I am glad that I am.

I appreciate existing and all but feel no obligation to "worship" a god damned thing, period.

I think it's basically retarded to associate the notion of "generosity" with "Universe". Generosity is a human term that doesn't apply to a self-regulated, unwillful system like "Universe".

You are a sentient being ... and you were produced by a self-regulated, unwillful system?

 

[Bishadi]

respect, admire - sure. worship? no.

no ma'am/sir/youngster...........

the only responsibility i can see, that shares we 'care' is to be responsible for our actions...

a giver is doing, not begging

people like the homage and think the 'gods' like it too

but name "a god" that mankind didn't create?

only one, i know of; the garden (mother nature)

so be good in actions, is how i see paying all the homage i can muster

enabling life by choice........ (ie... nature enabled life, and i am a rock that can roll by choice; i can, support life to continue, by choice)

may seem complicated but it seems pretty clear to me

get off the knees and do the deeds

 

[parmalee]

respect, admire - sure. worship? no.

still, i think we are making a lot of assumptions about both what "worship" means and what "sacrifice" means.

worship=giving worth. perhaps it is simply acknowledging the value of a thing, in a ritualistic manner.

i think the term "worship," like for instance, the term "obedience," has come to acquire a lot of baggage and curious (negative for many) connotations.

there is a french film, baxter, about a pitbull and a sadistic, nazi-obsessed adolescent boy. i won't go into the details, but at the end of the film, baxter (the dog) proclaims: "i have learned one thing: never to obey." what? that's ridiculous! obedience does not denote "blindly following orders," it is simply heeding and acknowledging.

i am obedient to my dog and she is obedient to me--and i seldom issue "orders"! (yet she is impeccably trained and well mannered.) obedience is more about respect for the other and listening.

i think perhaps the same may be true for worship--not in all contexts, but in many. to worship is simply to acknowledge the worth and value of a thing in a formalized, ritualistic manner.

 

[Gustav]

1. Wealth without work

umm
so some luck out. myob

2. Pleasure without conscience

4. Commerce without morality

7. Politics without principle

consider the greater good. and your neighbor

3. Knowledge without character

wtf?

6. Worship without sacrifice

wtf?

5. Science without humanity

wtf?

—Mahatma Gandhi

decent but a whack job

 

[wesmorris]

still, i think we are making a lot of assumptions about both what "worship" means and what "sacrifice" means.

worship=giving worth. perhaps it is simply acknowledging the value of a thing, in a ritualistic manner.

i think the term "worship," like for instance, the term "obedience," has come to acquire a lot of baggage and curious (negative for many) connotations.

there is a french film, baxter, about a pitbull and a sadistic, nazi-obsessed adolescent boy. i won't go into the details, but at the end of the film, baxter (the dog) proclaims: "i have learned one thing: never to obey." what? that's ridiculous! obedience does not denote "blindly following orders," it is simply heeding and acknowledging.

i am obedient to my dog and she is obedient to me--and i seldom issue "orders"! (yet she is impeccably trained and well mannered.) obedience is more about respect for the other and listening.

i think perhaps the same may be true for worship--not in all contexts, but in many. to worship is simply to acknowledge the worth and value of a thing in a formalized, ritualistic manner.

no, worship is "giving worth to the extreme".

from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Pronunciation: \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

 

[lightgigantic]

Generosity is sentient beings can have.

I didn't ask to be here, though I am glad that I am.

I appreciate existing and all but feel no obligation to "worship" a god damned thing, period.

I think it's basically retarded to associate the notion of "generosity" with "Universe". Generosity is a human term that doesn't apply to a self-regulated, unwillful system like "Universe".

well I guess you will just have to learn to somehow be satisfied with your worshipful self then ....
:shrug:

 

[Doreen]

"Seven Blunders of the World"

1. Wealth without work

I would tend to agree with this one, unless this wealth (of leisure) can be spread.

2. Pleasure without conscience

My dog has pleasure without conscience and I can't find a thing wrong with most instances of this. Pleasure at the expense of others is a problem, but I see no reason to sober up pleasure in general.

3. Knowledge without character

I think it would be good to regard someone as not having knowledge if they lack character.

4. Commerce without morality

Again I think instances of this can be fine. Immoral commerce however is not.

5. Science without humanity

Sure

6. Worship without sacrifice

I don't like this one either. The judgment that sacrifice is a must is part of the problem out there.

7. Politics without principle

Sure, I can go along with that.

—Mahatma Gandhi

Which seemed pretty sensible and in line with some of my own thoughts but on scanning it a few times, point 6 stood out.

Why worship at all?

Honestly the notion of worship disgusts me. I think it denigrates both the object of worship and more, the person doing the worship.

Love seems better to me. Keeps the face out of the mud and might avoid some of the powerful expectations that build up when one treats oneself poorly.
Love mingled with awe can be alright.

I just ran through the dictionary definitions of worship, leading me to reverence

1. a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

And that sounds OK. But only in two way streets. I think the word has taken on meanings that I find distasteful, though the dictionary contradicts me. Most worship seems to include some direct or indirect injunction to think of oneself as small, unworthy, impure, a supplicant. It may be fine experience oneself as small, but I don't think it needs to be required. The others should be avoided as injunctions.

 

[Doreen]

no, worship is "giving worth to the extreme".

from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Pronunciation: \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

While I share your distaste for worship as it seems to mean in most contexts I come across it, can you not imagine having deep, extreme respect for some facet of nature that you love or a person - who perhaps feels the same way about you: a child, a parent, a lover, etc. Or must such respect be tepid?

 

[wynn]

I really loath the notion of worship. It sincerely grosses me out.

 

[wesmorris]

well I guess you will just have to learn to somehow be satisfied with your worshipful self then ....
:shrug:

Lol, I'm not particularly worshipful, but I'm still fine thanks!

I'm fairly satisfied most of the time as well. Too mind boggling?