Why Monogamy Is Ridiculous

[Aladdin]

It's become quite common in Europe. The last statistics I saw a few months ago said that a greater percentage of European children grow up to adulthood in a stable home with their biological parents than American children, even though a much smaller percentage of those parents are married than American parents.

Something similar is happening in Quebec, Canada. Avoiding marriages and living in common-law partnerships (usually monogamous) seems to be a popular trend with the younger generation. At least compared to the rest of Canada/U.S., not sure how it fares in comparison with Europe.

Just look at the people who make up Congress. They're pounding their tiny fists and throwing temper tantrums, saying, "No no! I won't let you raise taxes/cut spending/increase the debt limit (pick any one or all three of those and you've described virtually the entire Capitol Building), and I don't care if it destroys the global economy and makes the Great Depression look like a bad day at the beach, because I can't think that far in advance."

Do you get the same impression when listening to Ron Paul? (Speaking for myself, he is the only Republican I ever wished to win a presidential campaign.)

I wish I had the reference for this quote, which I got from a newspaper or magazine earlier this year: (...)

Maybe from this Wahsington Post piece?

(about inbreeding)

Still, it was less common in our species than in our closest relatives.

Was it, really? Or is it just a projection of the current state of affairs back in time to a period for which we lack evidence... I don't know, haven't read much about it, was just wondering...

A primatologist once said that inbreeding is so intensive in gorillas that if you showed a skull from two individuals from opposite ends of the species's range to a biologist unfamiliar with gorillas, he would insist that they must be from two different species.

So, the inbreeding influences the skull shape? I know that it leads (more often than in outbreeding, but still in a small percentage of cases) to all sorts of genetic abnormalities.

There are still a few Paleolithic and Neolithic tribes left in central-northeastern Asia. These people are living the way their ancestors did twelve thousand years ago.

(...)

People also use "polygamy" to include polyandry which, AFAIK, is only practiced among tribes who still live a paleolithic or neolithic lifestyle.

Here's one community that still practices polyandry: the Tibetans of the Niyma. However, their lifestyle seems to be rather modern.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Do you get the same impression when listening to Ron Paul? (Speaking for myself, he is the only Republican I ever wished to win a presidential campaign.)

I was a Ron Paul supporter back in the early days of the Libertarian Party when he was always our candidate. He only switched parties when his district attracted more Democrats and he could no longer win by running as a Libertarian. I'm not very fond of him now. He's a paleo-libertarian, focused entirely on economic issues because during the Cold War Chess Game with the Russians that was what we were all focused on. Now the 21st-century libertarians are more focused on the other half of the party platform, things like immigration rights, drug decriminalization and religious freedom. He's kind of a dinosaur.

Maybe from this Washington Post piece?

Hey thanks! Good work! Saved me a search.

Was it, really? Or is it just a projection of the current state of affairs back in time to a period for which we lack evidence... I don't know, haven't read much about it, was just wondering...

It's getting easier to find and analyze DNA in fossils, so we'll know more about this in a little while.

So, the inbreeding influences the skull shape? I know that it leads (more often than in outbreeding, but still in a small percentage of cases) to all sorts of genetic abnormalities.

Inbreeding accentuates just about anything. Gorillas apparently have quite a lot of range in their skull shape so inbreeding just exaggerates it.

Here's one community that still practices polyandry: the Tibetans of the Niyma. However, their lifestyle seems to be rather modern.

It's really rather difficult to find any "primitive" tribe whose lifestyle hasn't been corrupted almost beyond recognition. The Inuit, the Sami, the Australians, the Maori, the Malayo-Polynesians, the indigenous people of Mexico. They all have chain saws, guns, iPods, Swiss Army knives, you name it. If it's that easy to pick up the material aspects of our culture, the abstract aspects will be even easier.

 

[iceaura]

Just look at the people who make up Congress. They're pounding their tiny fists and throwing temper tantrums, saying, "No no! I won't let you raise taxes/cut spending/increase the debt limit (pick any one or all three of those and you've described virtually the entire Capitol Building)

Your description there does not apply to the Dems in general, btw: they are saying none of those three things.

"Both sides" don't do everything.

But they {subprimes} were not institutionalized.

Yes, they were. They were bought and sold in standardized markets, by official standard banks and investment firms.

There were not so many of them that defaults became a domino cascade.

There never were. That's not what happened.

There were not so many mortgagees upside-down that there were not enough solvent people to swoop in and buy up the properties.

That's an effect of the bubble and crash - any bubble and crash will do that, in any commodity. And it's not true, anyway. There are plenty of solvent people, enough to buy up all the properties as soon as the bubble pricing has been deflated and the deflation worked through the economy. The problem is that people cannot afford to sell when upside down (houses. Beanie babies and baseball cards are different. That's why it's important to regulate commodities markets in necessities - the capitalist boom and bust speculation cycle does too much harm)

Forgot the context: OK, how do we work this into monogamy? one way might be to notice how much of the US demand for housing, including the bubble demand, is a consequence of divorce from monogamy. If we could find a more stable arrangement for rich people to live in than separately housed monogamous nuclear families (i.e. couples), the economic benefits would be significant overall.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Your description there does not apply to the Dems in general, btw: they are saying none of those three things.

If that were true then they would have been willing to take the high road, be responsible adults, and cave in to the GOP's unreasonable demands in order to save the entire planetary economy. I agree that the other side has been far more irresponsible and immature, but the distinction will be trivial if they truly do conspire to leave us with a catastrophic stalemate. Mature people simply do not behave this way. They are, in effect, the whole country's parents, and they are going to forget all about us and let us go without food, clothing and a warm place to sleep, while they have their little spat.

There never were. That's not what happened.

Have you looked around??? There are neighborhoods where foreclosure has become a blight. In many cases the banks are not bothering to actually evict the residents because they keep the lights on and mow the lawn so that the entire neighborhood doesn't lose even more value--and no one's available to buy the properties anyway.

The problem is that people cannot afford to sell when upside down.

It's not they who are trying to sell. They don't own the houses anymore. It's the banks.

We seem to have lost the topic. It's now not monogamy that's ridiculous, but immaturity.

 

[iceaura]

If that were true then they would have been willing to take the high road, be responsible adults, and cave in to the GOP's unreasonable demands in order to save the entire planetary economy.

The observation was accurate regardless.

And besides: Adults on the high road don't give in to tantrums, especially when serious issues are on the line. The precedent is always worse than the consequences.

Mature people simply do not behave this way. They are, in effect, the whole country's parents, and they are going to forget all about us and let us go without food, clothing and a warm place to sleep, while they have their little spat

Nothing little about it. It's a serious power play by the corporate right, and there's nothing to gain by giving in to it - certainly not food, clothing, or a warm place to sleep.

The problem is that people cannot afford to sell when upside down.
”
It's not they who are trying to sell. They don't own the houses anymore. It's the banks.

If the banks own them they aren't upside down.

 

[Aladdin]

We seem to have lost the topic. It's now not monogamy that's ridiculous, but immaturity.

Unless one (monogamy) leads to the other (immaturity) ... After all, is there anyone in Congress who is not a declared monogamist? See? There's an undeniable link between the two ...

 

[KilljoyKlown]

This topic seems to be getting off track a bit, but I have to say when I started it I had no idea it would continue on like it has.

My personal take on monogamy is that it's two people treating each other as they want to be treated. I don't want my woman fucking around on me therefore I won't fuck around on her.

 

[scheherazade]

This topic seems to be getting off track a bit, but I have to say when I started it I had no idea it would continue on like it has.

My personal take on monogamy is that it's two people treating each other as they want to be treated. I don't want my woman fucking around on me therefore I won't fuck around on her.

Well said, KJK. When all is said and done, after the honeymoon, how much of one's life is actually spent between the sheets? A shared life is about far more than sexual pleasure, or even the raising of children at this time of global population.

Two persons in a respectful relationship bring twice the resources and energy to the main challenge in life, which is simply staying alive, preferably with some degree of comfort and dignity and allowing some time for optional pursuits.

Our species seems to have lost it's ability to focus presently, perhaps in response to the rapid development of technologies and the wide array of diversions it brings. With sexual imagery everywhere, it's only natural that monogamy is now jokingly called 'monotony', as people jump from partner to partner like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Apparently that's not even new, there having been the era of 'Free Love' during the sixties.

Monogamy or serial monogamy will continue, even if fewer choose this path, simply for the many benefits that accrue to the persons who are willing to take a pledge.......and mean it.

 

[wellwisher]

Marriage is centered on the female. All eyes are on the bride during the wedding. The wedding is the bride's pride and groom's doom. But all and all, it was a good deal for men and women back in the day. The guy sacrificed freedom, for family and all that would bring.

Women's liberation started to change women. For men, the marriage deal got worse. Women expected more from men and men had to expect less from women. The result has been many men tend to stay in the on-deck area, where the deal has a better balance for the male. The old fashion women could keep their men older due to a better marriage value for the male and female.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Marriage is centered on the female. All eyes are on the bride during the wedding. The wedding is the bride's pride and groom's doom. But all and all, it was a good deal for men and women back in the day. The guy sacrificed freedom, for family and all that would bring.

Women's liberation started to change women. For men, the marriage deal got worse. Women expected more from men and men had to expect less from women. The result has been many men tend to stay in the on-deck area, where the deal has a better balance for the male. The old fashion women could keep their men older due to a better marriage value for the male and female.

A friend of mine living in Tucson, AZ did a lot of dating after his divorce and every time he let a woman move in with him he would keep track of how long the honeymoon (all the sex he wanted without any bitching about anything) lasted. A few years later and about 20 live in's, he said the average honeymoon was about 3 months. After the 3 months the bitching would progressively get worse until he had to kick them out. Everyone of those women new he was never going to marry her before they moved in. In every case they all thought they could change him.

 

[clusteringflux]

This thread makes me wonder for all the definitions, exactly when does a relationship becomes less than monogamous?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

This thread makes me wonder for all the definitions, exactly when does a relationship becomes less than monogamous?

When you try to juggle.

 

[clusteringflux]

Is an anonymous encounter behind the grocery store considered juggling?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Is an anonymous encounter behind the grocery store considered juggling?

That would depend on your current status.

 

[scheherazade]

This thread makes me wonder for all the definitions, exactly when does a relationship becomes less than monogamous?

When you are in an existing relationship and having sex with anyone besides the person you are in the relationship with. :bugeye:

If you are uncommitted, dating, and trying to score with them all it used to be called 'playing the field'. Not certain what the current terminology is.....

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Our species seems to have lost it's ability to focus presently, perhaps in response to the rapid development of technologies and the wide array of diversions it brings.

I just finished updating and sorting out my quote file. This extract from a book review in Reason magazine (the libertarian rag) a couple of months ago supports and amplifies your point:

The inhibiting intimacy of the village has been supplanted by the self-indulgent anonymity of the city. Second careers, second homes, second spouses and even second childhoods are commonplace. The internet, with its instant gratification at the touch of a mouse, is collapsing the delay between impulse and action. Bad decisions about smoking, eating, drinking and other behaviors already account for almost half of U.S. deaths; this can easily get worse. Post-industrial capitalism has a bipolar disorder, demanding us to be self-controlled workers yet uninhibited shoppers. We perform our work on devices that at the same time function as telephones, stereos, TVs and even games. (Daniel Akst, We Have Met the Enemy: Self-Control in an Age of Excess)

With sexual imagery everywhere, it's only natural that monogamy is now jokingly called 'monotony', as people jump from partner to partner like a cat on a hot tin roof. Apparently that's not even new, there having been the era of 'Free Love' during the sixties.

Except we legitimized it by renaming it the "Sexual Revolution." And we weren't the first; America went through the same thing in the Roaring Twenties. My mother said the worst thing about Prohibition was that by making drinking suddenly "cool" (Americans are not an authority-loving people like the Brits, Germans or Japanese) it got women going to bars. Once they started getting drunk, the rules went out the window.

Everyone of those women new he was never going to marry her before they moved in. In every case they all thought they could change him.

It's in their DNA. It's called "mothering": trying to turn irresponsible little boys into grownup men.

Deep down inside, every human male, no matter how old he is, is a little boy. Deep down inside, every human female, no matter how young she is, is a mother.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Deep down inside, every human male, no matter how old he is, is a little boy.

That doesn't seem fair to a lot of perfectly responsible men...

Deep down inside, every human female, no matter how young she is, is a mother.

I think I gave that part back in exchange for my excess adrenaline, lol...I'm definitely not maternal in any sense.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

That doesn't seem fair to a lot of perfectly responsible men.

Our lives are a constant struggle to overrule the little boy within. Trust me on this. This is why even the most responsible man has to buy him off with, for example, a sportscar.

And this is why wars are almost always started and fought by men. War is the most immature possible way to resolve a conflict, a throwback to little boys punching each other on the playground. War actually gives men an excuse to behave like little boys.

 

[nietzschefan]

And this is why wars are almost always started and fought by men. War is the most immature possible way to resolve a conflict, a throwback to little boys punching each other on the playground. War actually gives men an excuse to behave like little boys.

False.

Perhaps "skirmishes" and below, but actual wars have nothing to do with this(blaming it on some little boy instinct) whatsoever.

 

[Ellie]

Middle age is the highest one goes in age, it is the peak.