Why I became an atheist: Why did you not?

[Dinosaur]

Various recent threads in some forums have discussed Atheism, which prompts me to explain my POV (already posted in other places).

When I was circa 9-10 years old, I was introduced to the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son. My father & I were very strongly bonded with both love & respect. The thought of such a sacrifice appalled me & I argued with the Sunday school teacher.

I could not imagine such a request being made. I could not imagine a father not rejecting such a request.

The attempts to explain the story were the begining of my becoming an atheist.

I am posting here rather than in a religious forum due to knowing the POV of the folks there. I am interested in other points of view.

 

[arauca]

Various recent threads in some forums have discussed Atheism, which prompts me to explain my POV (already posted in other places).

When I was circa 9-10 years old, I was introduced to the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son. My father & I were very strongly bonded with both love & respect. The thought of such a sacrifice appalled me & I argued with the Sunday school teacher.

I could not imagine such a request being made. I could not imagine a father not rejecting such a request.

The attempts to explain the story were the begining of my becoming an atheist.

I am posting here rather than in a religious forum due to knowing the POV of the folks there. I am interested in other points of view.

I think Abram mas a pagan and pagans custom was to sacrifice their children, perhaps Abram felt it was necessary to show his loyalty to God and ha was going to maKE an offering ?

 

[billvon]

I think Abram mas a pagan and pagans custom was to sacrifice their children, perhaps Abram felt it was necessary to show his loyalty to God and ha was going to maKE an offering ?

Uh, no. Read Genesis 22. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Normally they sacrificed animals; God changed things up.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Dinosaur,

This seems very obvious to the point of being riculous, but religions and god are not the same thing. I also think that religion is pretty crazy for the most part. Try looking up contradictions in the bible.

It was actually science that brought me towards a belief in God.

I know many will say hogwash, but I have been involved in paranormal study most of my life, and while it is true psychic phenomenon by its nature (mind to mind) can never (not yet) be measuured (thus proven), I maintain I have seen bizarre things happen in this field and claim to have successfully done telepathy many times, as can any of you who try.

So I have looked at theories that allow for telepathy, and a majority of those allow for a mass consciousness and yes, even a god.

Someone who seems to make a lot of sense to me is Walter Russell, a friend of Einstein and Tesla. His views on Cosmology discovered Plutonium prior to world war 2, and if he was listened to that war could have been prevented. He is also known for discovering other elements on our periodic table.

His Cosmology is not in contradiction (so much) with various viewpoints as it is a deeper understanding.

He did argue against Mass attracting Mass gravity and Coloumb laws, but his view is understandable and justified if people give him a chance.

Your arguing against religion is valid, but it holds no water in questions of a Universal consciousness.

I'd suggest reading Walter Russell,

His views are becoming widely accepted now, but certainly opposes mainstream physics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvCHOBxN-wU

If this is true then it means "The Sumerians" the earliest known civilizations idea that everything was sound (octaves). They had a Theory of everything.

This also allows astrology to be true, and a variety of other historical Sacred Geometry to be true.

I am only trying to open your mind a little. Your local religions failure does not mean this is the end of you. You owe it to yourself to
a) experiment with telepathy, because when success comes through dramatically you will believe. Either sense what people are doing at given times or try to send messages aimed at REM sleep times.

b) Look at theories like the one I show you here.

It is sad skeptics think this is it for them, and many will think Im nuts for believing even in telepathy, but experiencing it and having people react to it in dramatic ways is extremely convincing, and I could never doubt its validity.

 

[exchemist]

Various recent threads in some forums have discussed Atheism, which prompts me to explain my POV (already posted in other places).

When I was circa 9-10 years old, I was introduced to the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son. My father & I were very strongly bonded with both love & respect. The thought of such a sacrifice appalled me & I argued with the Sunday school teacher.

I could not imagine such a request being made. I could not imagine a father not rejecting such a request.

The attempts to explain the story were the begining of my becoming an atheist.

I am posting here rather than in a religious forum due to knowing the POV of the folks there. I am interested in other points of view.

Must say I always took the Old Testament stories with a bit of a pinch of salt. I was taught to read them for the underlying message rather than taking them literally. The biggest shock to my faith came from travelling in the Middle and Far East, and encountering different religions, all equally sincerely held and capable of inspiring similar degrees of holiness to Christianity. Ever since, I've found it rather absurd for one religion to claim it has a monopoly on the real truth. I've come to see them all as different, imperfect, models of reality, rather in the way that scientific theories are.

 

[Balerion]

Must say I always took the Old Testament stories with a bit of a pinch of salt. I was taught to read them for the underlying message rather than taking them literally

Unfortunately, the stories are no less vile as moral metaphors. Many don't even make sense as such, such as the story of Abraham and the near-sacrifice of his son.

The biggest shock to my faith came from travelling in the Middle and Far East, and encountering different religions, all equally sincerely held and capable of inspiring similar degrees of holiness to Christianity. Ever since, I've found it rather absurd for one religion to claim it has a monopoly on the real truth. I've come to see them all as different, imperfect, models of reality, rather in the way that scientific theories are.

Interesting. I wonder why you decided they were describing reality, rather than fiction. Discovering the competing and contradictory truth claims of other religions only confirmed my suspicions that the whole thing was a big lie. How did it not have the same effect on you?

 

[andy1033]

Why, because i believe humans are nout. I will always think there is something up there above us all, and always will.

Mankind can play the hand science gives them and block those brain receptors from being used, like the reason why less go to church today. So what, even if science is doing this, still means that that something is still there and most of you are being blocked to it.

What ever is up there is still there, but science knows how to block people from accessing it. Does not mean it does not exist, it means science knows how to block it.

Like how ants are blocked to the knowledge humans exist. Same way.

I know science has just cheated most of you out of knowing. Does not mean its not there, it means science is cheating you out of knowing.

For me humans are nothing and never will work out anything but there own brains. Science is cheating you lot from knowing something. That does not mean it does not exist, it means humans know enough of the brain to block something.

 

[exchemist]

Unfortunately, the stories are no less vile as moral metaphors. Many don't even make sense as such, such as the story of Abraham and the near-sacrifice of his son.



Interesting. I wonder why you decided they were describing reality, rather than fiction. Discovering the competing and contradictory truth claims of other religions only confirmed my suspicions that the whole thing was a big lie. How did it not have the same effect on you?

I'm getting old. There seem to me to be many things in our human experience of life for which science is not very helpful (art, history, loss, love and so on - the Humanities, if you like). I take off my scientific hat to deal with many aspects of experience - as I think in fact we all do. The core purpose of religion is a guide for living your life and it proceeds through subjective, rather than objective, experiences. I nearly chucked it out at one stage but then found that - for me, i.e. subjectively - something seemed to be missing.

 

[Balerion]

I'm getting old. There seem to me to be many things in our human experience of life for which science is not very helpful (art, history, loss, love and so on - the Humanities, if you like). I take off my scientific hat to deal with many aspects of experience - as I think in fact we all do. The core purpose of religion is a guide for living your life and it proceeds through subjective, rather than objective, experiences. I nearly chucked it out at one stage but then found that - for me, i.e. subjectively - something seemed to be missing.

Just for a start, I don't know where you get the idea that science doesn't help with history, but archaeology and paleontology among other disciplines and technological advances are key to helping us uncover and understand much of what we learn about the past. Anyway...

I've never understood the need to pit science against religion as if people can only live by one or the other. Science only contradicts religion in its truth claims; there is no insistence that one must abandon their ethics or live a life of cold logic because we know Jesus was a mythological figure. There's plenty of room for the numinous without religiosity or fairy tales. In any case, if you found what you were looking for in faith, then more power to you. I just wish people didn't assume there were only two ways to live: by science or by religion.

 

[Stoniphi]

The simplest explanation is most likely the most accurate.

There is no need for a ghost in the machine to explain the human experience, and there is no need for a "god" to explain anything either. No spirits, devils, souls or gods, just what is here and what is there.

Religion flows from our human sensibility of right and wrong, not the other way around. Ethics and morals come from within - not from without - it is part of what we are as sentient social beings. The error is on the part of religious people who cannot understand how anyone could have ethics and morals without religion.

The messup within Christianity is from the melding of the Masada 'christ cult' with the 3 'Jesus schools' after Rome kicked the crap out of the Masada xtians. The combination of practical knowledge passed on by way of parable and the wild fantasies of Masada has made for an inconsistent doctrine indeed. Having that melded doctrine hacked and edited by Constantine and his momma pretty much lunched it for all practical purposes.

 

[andy1033]

The simplest explanation is most likely the most accurate.

There is no need for a ghost in the machine to explain the human experience, and there is no need for a "god" to explain anything either. No spirits, devils, souls or gods, just what is here and what is there.

So although ants do not know we exist, that means we do not exist then, in your eyes.

If everything was here and now, then ants would know of us, there perception would not be blocked from knowing we are here.

 

[Stoniphi]

You assume quite a bit there. Why do you think they do not perceive us? I think they do - and quite well.

The old Cartesian xtian claim that other animals are nothing more than "mindless, unfeeling automatons" ? Try throwing rocks at a hornet nest (ants are wingless wasps/hornets) for a while and see if they notice you or not, eh. I am willing to bet that they not only believe you exist, but will make your existence very painful for a while if you try that.

BTW, the classic rebuff of your argument (after St Thomas Aquinas) is this: I have a thought in my mind of a unicorn. Since I thought of it, it must exist - right? Not necessarily, no.

 

[andy1033]

You assume quite a bit there. Why do you think they do not perceive us? I think they do - and quite well.

I do not think so, and science should be able to prove it. I know there brains may be small, but surely they could prove it.

I think you are jumping to conclusions by assuming what we perceive also perceives us.

 

[exchemist]

Just for a start, I don't know where you get the idea that science doesn't help with history, but archaeology and paleontology among other disciplines and technological advances are key to helping us uncover and understand much of what we learn about the past. Anyway...

I've never understood the need to pit science against religion as if people can only live by one or the other. Science only contradicts religion in its truth claims; there is no insistence that one must abandon their ethics or live a life of cold logic because we know Jesus was a mythological figure. There's plenty of room for the numinous without religiosity or fairy tales. In any case, if you found what you were looking for in faith, then more power to you. I just wish people didn't assume there were only two ways to live: by science or by religion.

Exactly my position: I see no conflict, but then I apply the rule that as far as the physical world is concerned, science must trump religious teaching. Which does not undermine the core purpose of religion, since this is not to provide an account of the physical world.

Yes history is a bit of an overlap area. It has its physical facts, which are amenable to science. But human motivation is more nebulous.

 

[Anthony_]

god just dont exist, there's no evidence, there's no need:

-if god will judge us why did he create us in a way we can sin? it could mean "he made us blue to judge us for being blue afterwards

-the society is getting worse and worse, less values more cruelty, so what it means? is devil more powerful than god?

-if god is the creator of everything why did he create atheist like us? he can appear in front of us and make us believers, that an easy task for a creator of the universe

-believers say jesus, god's son died for us (very sadistic to send his only son to die like that), to clean our sins.... but hey, society is getting worst according time pass, so jesus' death did nothing upon us

-nowadays is very common to see in news mothers that kill their children just after they give birth, so, why babies as a pure beings have to die in the hands of their own mothers? what kind of sin do they bring? they dont even know what light is before they die, they are just innocent

-why god just dont come?, kill the devil, make us perfect and give happiness to everyone?

 

[elte]

I became moderately atheistic recently because things work exactly as though no one can (or cares to) control the workings of our universe, except life forms like the ones we can observe, in their own restricted spheres of influence. After a lifetime of searching hard, I just had to save the time and effort I have left for the purpose of trying to live.

 

[Stoniphi]

I think you are jumping to conclusions by assuming what we perceive also perceives us.

..and I think that you allow your human arrogance to blind you to the innate capacities of animals other than yourself. Just because they are small and do not look like us does not mean they are stupid or unthinking. If you closely observe a wasp you will see that she will then closely attend to you as well - she will turn her head to point her eyes at you so as to better see what you are up to.

Again - try throwing rocks at a wasp nest for a few days. They will soon recognize you and will then attack you on sight rather than wait for you to start throwing those rocks at their home again. I repeat this experiment every spring when the newly awakened European Yellow-jacket queens start building their new nests around my home. I have to knock them down with a broom before they fill up with workers. If I miss the queen the first time she will recognize me when I come back and will attack me immediately on sight while ignoring other people in the area. I am allergic to their sting so they are not welcome around my house.

Try it for yourself. Be prepared to run...fast.

http://www.nature.com/news/wasps-clock-faces-like-humans-1.9533

 

[Aqueous Id]

So although ants do not know we exist, that means we do not exist then, in your eyes.

Ants perceive you, which is how and why they bite you.

If everything was here and now, then ants would know of us, there perception would not be blocked from knowing we are here.

Tell that to the ant who is slicing into your tender parts.

I do not think so, and science should be able to prove it. I know there brains may be small, but surely they could prove it.

Tell that to your dog who is licking your face and begging you to play with him.

I think you are jumping to conclusions by assuming what we perceive also perceives us.

It's merely a question of whether the creature has a brain and sense organs.

 

[arauca]

Uh, no. Read Genesis 22. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Normally they sacrificed animals; God changed things up.

Was Isak his only son ? Who's son was Ismael ?

 

[origin]

The cleaning lady's. Sort of a schwarzenegger thing.