Why I am not a Christian

Roosters for ever

Registered Senior Member
Moderator note: Posts #1 to #8 of this thread were split from another thread, here:
---
The bible. An ancient obscure book, written in an age of obscurity, in an obscure manner, by equally obscure fishermen and goat herders. My comments on the bible go from being laughable ( talking snakes, humans turning into pillars of salts, sudden unexplained burning bushes and dead men walking) to exaggerated claims regarding the whole world when this 'whole world" was actually confined to a small region in the middle east. I was raised a good Catholic boy who had such obscure nonsense rammed down my throat, although probably by now one of the many Popes that have reigned during my lifetime so far, has more then likely excommunicated me!!! For the member Kermos, I would suggest you read some stuff by the late great Carl Sagan, in my opinion, one of the greatest educators of our time. I believe his narrative from the time the cameras of the Voyager probe were turned back towards the inner solar system, and the photo of the pixel sized Earth, should be compulsory learning for all primary class children in every school everywhere. I reproduce that narrative here... 1C1VDKB_enAU1119AU1119&oq=the+pale+blue+dot+narrative+video&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRifBdIBCTEzMTEwajBqN6gCCLACAfEF8_Ope6JVMEHxBfPzqXuiVTBB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:0337514e,vid:wupToqz1e2g,st:0
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My comments on the bible go from being laughable ( talking snakes, humans turning into pillars of salts, sudden unexplained burning bushes and dead men walking) to exaggerated claims regarding the whole world
You're new here. You just joined a few hours ago.

It behooves you to read the forum rules. Notably, the Religion Forum is not the place to simply bash Religion for bashing's sake. Your post is generic bashing, of which we take a dim view here.

If a poster raises certain claims in the course of a thread, you are certainly welcome to critically examine and dismantle the claim in the context of the thread topic.

But your post is both off-topic in this thread as well as inappropriate for the Religion forum itself.

Reported for moderation.
 
I want to give you an idea of who I am. I was an evolutionist, but Christ changed me into a Christian.
How did he do that? With all due respect, as a good Catholic boy, the incredible progress of science in explaining the world around me and the cosmos that surrounds me, swayed me into finally seeing the bible and religious claims as being started by ancient man, in his need to explain the Universe around him, the stars, Moon, mountains, streams etc without the need of some supernatural/paranormal unevidenced entitiy . Science now does that, although it is always an ongoing proposition, with new research and data and technological advancements continually revealing more.
You then said, "Regardless of alternative models, such as a cyclically oscillating Universe, I am focusing on the beginning, that is, the origin of the Universe."
That is Also the goal of scientists. The big bang while being the overwhelmingly most likely scientific theory of the Universe we see today, does though fail us at the first quantum/Planck instant. Science needs what is termed a validated quantum gravity theory at those levels or QGT. The big bang is the evolution of the universe/space/time, (as we know them) from a hot dense state, to what we see today. The best piece of evidence for that is the observed expansion. I don't see any evidence for any old bloke in a beard, waving his hand, wishing everything into existence. In my opinion, the best speculation as to that what happened at that first tiny instant, and even before, is detailed in Professor Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe from Nothing"....the nothing being essentially defined as spacetime at the quantum/Planck level and termed "quantum foam" It is this quantum foam that has existed for eternity and what is essentially nothing. I find that speculation far easier to accept then that old bloke with the long flowing beard.

You then said,
"I believe the Universe is about 6,000 years old. For me, and not for scientists of the Big Bang persuasion, "faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) applies because my assurance of things hoped for is my Lord and my God Jesus Christ's triumphant return while scientists are not hoping for the Big Bang since scientists believe the Big Bang is an event of the past.

Scientists believe the Big Bang Theory is science. I postulate that the Big Bang Theory is based on faith"

Your first sentence is essentially nonsense and garbage. Many disciplines give us plenty of evidence of Earth itself being 4.5 billion years old. I mean really, while I'm trying to be polite, a 6,000 year old UNIVERSE is crazy!! You us some biblical reference in Hebrews, again the bible is an ancient obscure book, written in an obscure manner, in an age of obscurity, by equally obscure fishermen and goat herders. And of course the different branches/spin offs of Christianity are many, but thankfully the YEC version is rare. Won't comment on too much else as others have shown the stupidity of your beliefs, other then your last sentence
"Scientists believe the Big Bang Theory is science. I postulate that the Big Bang Theory is based on faith" Do you know what evidence is? Let's see, the best evidence for the big bang is (1) The observed expansion. (2) The CMBR at 2.7K, (3) The observed abundance of the lighter elements, and (4) the very tiny variations that exist within the CMBR (discovered by WMAP) being seeds for galactic evolution.

In summing re your faith based claims just let me say again, ancient man needed to explain the Universe around him before science arose. Today many believers simply are following generations of their own generational beliefs. eg: if I was born in India, I would likley be Sikh, if born in Iran, Muslim etc. The other point to the continuing festering of religion on society is the fear of many that death is final...the end, kaput, nothing left except back to probable more star formation and the circle continues. Many need the warm fuzzy comforting belief of a life after and eternal happiness, rather then the cold, end of it all we call death, no matter what the evidence tells us. Now I'm going for a VB and a packet of salted peanuts to contemplate my birth in the eruption of some ancient star.
 
You're new here. You just joined a few hours ago.

It behooves you to read the forum rules. Notably, the Religion Forum is not the place to simply bash Religion for bashing's sake. Your post is generic bashing, of which we take a dim view here.

If a poster raises certain claims in the course of a thread, you are certainly welcome to critically examine and dismantle the claim in the context of the thread topic.

But your post is both off-topic in this thread as well as inappropriate for the Religion forum itself.

Reported for moderation.
Yes I am new. My apologies for bashing. I thought I was stating scientific facts.
 
Yes I am new. My apologies for bashing. I thought I was stating scientific facts.
Don't misunderstand. I don't disagree with your facts, it's just that this thread is not about kermos' belief in the Bible. It is about his disbelief in the science.

It may seem like a murky distinction, but this is a 700+ post thread wherein we've had to clarify that.

Mostly what we're haviong to at this point is giving the OP a primer in basic science terminology, such as "evidence", "theory", "proof", etc.
Until and unless he grasps those, all the scientific facts are going right over his head.
 
Don't misunderstand. I don't disagree with your facts, it's just that this thread is not about kermos' belief in the Bible. It is about his disbelief in the science.

It may seem like a murky distinction, but this is a 700+ post thread wherein we've had to clarify that.

Mostly what we're haviong to at this point is giving the OP a primer in basic science terminology, such as "evidence", "theory", "proof", etc.
Until and unless he grasps those, all the scientific facts are going right over his head.
No probs! And yes the distinction is certainly murky to say the least. It seems like our friend is "demanding" PROOF from scientific theory, despite even lacking evidence for his 6000 year old universe. Scientific theory as you probably know and understand, is never proof of anything, but also as experiments and observational data continues shows, they can be and are continually re-enforced and made "more certain" eg: General Relativity. I also read in one of his posts his objection to evolution. I mean really? Perhaps he needs to learn the distinction between the "fact of evolution" and the "theory of evolution" or the exact methodology and pathway evolution has taken, which is of course debatable. This of course differs from religion and its 'set in concrete" beliefs, under pain of eternal damnation.
 
No probs! And yes the distinction is certainly murky to say the least. It seems like our friend is "demanding" PROOF from scientific theory,
He is deliberately misunderstanding what science is, no matter how many times we correct him.


despite even lacking evidence for his 6000 year old universe.
He is forthright, within the first few posts, that his world view is firmly based in faith. He makes no excuses for that.

His goal is not to elevate his own beliefs; it is to drag the scientific method down to his own level of "faith".

Scientific theory as you probably know and understand, is never proof of anything,
As we have had to reimnd him every dozen posts or so.

but also as experiments and observational data continues shows, they can be and are continually re-enforced and made "more certain" eg: General Relativity. I also read in one of his posts his objection to evolution. I mean really? Perhaps he needs to learn the distinction between the "fact of evolution" and the "theory of evolution"
Yeah. He's nowhere near ready for that.

He says we can't trust anything we can't see with our own eyes - and that includes the Moon and the stars.
When we point to to him he never saw his grandparents conceive his father, he doesn't seem to see the irony. He does not understand inference or induction at all.
 
He is deliberately misunderstanding what science is, no matter how many times we correct him.



He is forthright, within the first few posts, that his world view is firmly based in faith. He makes no excuses for that.

His goal is not to elevate his own beliefs; it is to drag the scientific method down to his own level of "faith".


As we have had to reimnd him every dozen posts or so.


Yeah. He's nowhere near ready for that.

He says we can't trust anything we can't see with our own eyes - and that includes the Moon and the stars.
When we point to to him he never saw his grandparents conceive his father, he doesn't seem to see the irony. He does not understand inference or induction at all.
Thanks for the update and the course of the thread, which I admiitedly never fully read. Yes, many theists of the YEC brigade, "refuse" to understand that difference. Likewise gravity is a fact, but our theories of gravity are not really fully explained. Again, thanks for the update and progress. Might take him up on the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution. Just one thing else. I'm not really bashing religion and its beliefs afterall they give comfort and that warm cozy feeling to those that need that. It's when the proponents of religion and as you inferred, try and invalidate or bring down science to that level that I respond. I mean fair dinkum, where would we and the world be without science?
 
Roosters for ever:

Welcome to sciforums. Your posts here are on the borderline of what we consider acceptable here. I urge you to familiarise yourself with our Site Posting Guidelines, which you can find by viewing the topic list in the Site Feedback subforum. In particular, I direct your attention to the sections at the end, regarding preaching, proselytising and evangelising, as well as trolling.

It is fine by us for you to hold the views that you have expressed in your posts to the forum so far. However, you need to be wary about crossing the line into just asserting that your views are self-evidently true or correct. I'm not saying you have necessarily done that yet, but there are some suggestions of that kind of thing in your posts.
The bible. An ancient obscure book, written in an age of obscurity, in an obscure manner, by equally obscure fishermen and goat herders.
Actually, the books that made it into the bible were written by literate people and obviously not by illiterate fishermen or goat herders.

The fact that the four Gospels of the New Testament are so literate is, in itself, evidence that they are unlikely to have been written by any of the disciples of Jesus most of whom were, as you say, very probably illiterate.
My comments on the bible go from being laughable ( talking snakes, humans turning into pillars of salts, sudden unexplained burning bushes and dead men walking) to exaggerated claims regarding the whole world when this 'whole world" was actually confined to a small region in the middle east.
That's true of the Old Testament writings. The New Testament authors were a little more worldly. They were certainly aware of the Roman empire and were familiar with the eastern Mediterranean region, at least.
1C1VDKB_enAU1119AU1119&oq=the+pale+blue+dot+narrative+video&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRifBdIBCTEzMTEwajBqN6gCCLACAfEF8_Ope6JVMEHxBfPzqXuiVTBB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:0337514e,vid:wupToqz1e2g,st:0
Is that supposed to be some kind of link?
That is Also the goal of scientists. The big bang while being the overwhelmingly most likely scientific theory of the Universe we see today, does though fail us at the first quantum/Planck instant.
The big bang theory isn't actually about the first instants of how the universe started. At present, we can't investigate those first tiny fractions of a second, so the big bang theory doesn't attempt to consider them.

The question of what, if anything, caused the big bang is not something that the theory attempts to answer.
I don't see any evidence for any old bloke in a beard, waving his hand, wishing everything into existence.
Neither do I.
In my opinion, the best speculation as to that what happened at that first tiny instant, and even before, is detailed in Professor Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe from Nothing"....the nothing being essentially defined as spacetime at the quantum/Planck level and termed "quantum foam" It is this quantum foam that has existed for eternity and what is essentially nothing. I find that speculation far easier to accept then that old bloke with the long flowing beard.
That book is a popular science book, not a research paper or a textbook.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the obfuscation that Krauss employs to try to redefine "nothing" to mean "quantum foam", or whatever. A universe from quantum foam isn't the same as a universe from nothing, in my opinion. Not that I'm claiming the universe came from nothing. I don't know where it came from. There are quite a few ideas out there - some more plausible than others. We simply don't know which is right, though - if any.

It is clear, however, that a narrative involving a God creating a magical garden with a talking snake is not a plausible scientific explanation.
Many disciplines give us plenty of evidence of Earth itself being 4.5 billion years old.
Yes. Young Earth Creationism is a non-starter. There's far too much science stacked up against it. It's a faith-based, fringe belief motivated by religious fundamentalism.
I mean really, while I'm trying to be polite, a 6,000 year old UNIVERSE is crazy!!
It's not crazy. It's just wrong. In the absence of evidence, the universe could be 6000 years old. It's just that all the physical evidence we have points to it being far older than that.
You us some biblical reference in Hebrews, again the bible is an ancient obscure book, written in an obscure manner, in an age of obscurity, by equally obscure fishermen and goat herders.
The bible is hardly an obscure book. It is the best selling book of all time.
In summing re your faith based claims just let me say again, ancient man needed to explain the Universe around him before science arose. Today many believers simply are following generations of their own generational beliefs. eg: if I was born in India, I would likley be Sikh, if born in Iran, Muslim etc.
It is true that people's religious beliefs tend to be highly correlated with those of their parents. Religion is passed on through indoctrination, typically starting at a very young age.

Religious people seldom consider why they have been so "lucky" as to be born in one of the places in the world where the majority of the local population has settled into belief in the One True Religion. I think that a lot of them assume - if they give it any consideration at all - that they would somehow have come around to their current religious belief, had they been born somewhere different.
It seems like our friend is "demanding" PROOF from scientific theory, despite even lacking evidence for his 6000 year old universe.
Kermos (in the thread from which this one was split) tried to make his own belief system a very small target, by trying to shift the onus of proof to his opponents to prove a negative. What he should try to do, if he had any integrity, is to attempt to make a positive case for why his own religious beliefs are true. But he has tried to skip out on that, too, by claiming that he believes what he believes entirely because of "faith" - which actually means he just became convinced of the truth of certain religious claims without appealing to any evidence for them. In other words, he has effectively admitted to having an irrational belief. At the same time, he is very coy about any personal "spiritual" experiences he may or may not have had, most likely because he knows he can't meet any reasonable onus of proof when it comes to those. I actually think he's embarrassed that the basis of his belief system is on such shakey ground.
Scientific theory as you probably know and understand, is never proof of anything...
Kermos doesn't understand that point, despite having it explained to him three or seven times.
I also read in one of his posts his objection to evolution. I mean really?
No surprise that a Young Earth Creationist is also an evolution denier. Those people find the very idea of common descent with other apes icky (although, having said that, most of them don't understand what common descent even means - they think it means "we came from monkeys"). It's one more reason that they insist on the Young Earth.
Perhaps he needs to learn the distinction between the "fact of evolution" and the "theory of evolution" or the exact methodology and pathway evolution has taken, which is of course debatable.
I'm not sure if it's very helpful to try to distinguish the "fact of evolution" from the "theory of evolution". What do you mean by those terms?
This of course differs from religion and its 'set in concrete" beliefs, under pain of eternal damnation.
Eternal damnation isn't found in every religion. It's mostly just the Abrahamic ones.
 
How did he do that? With all due respect, as a good Catholic boy, the incredible progress of science in explaining the world around me and the cosmos that surrounds me, swayed me into finally seeing the bible and religious claims as being started by ancient man, in his need to explain the Universe around him, the stars, Moon, mountains, streams etc without the need of some supernatural/paranormal unevidenced entitiy . Science now does that, although it is always an ongoing proposition, with new research and data and technological advancements continually revealing more.
You then said, "Regardless of alternative models, such as a cyclically oscillating Universe, I am focusing on the beginning, that is, the origin of the Universe."
That is Also the goal of scientists. The big bang while being the overwhelmingly most likely scientific theory of the Universe we see today, does though fail us at the first quantum/Planck instant. Science needs what is termed a validated quantum gravity theory at those levels or QGT. The big bang is the evolution of the universe/space/time, (as we know them) from a hot dense state, to what we see today. The best piece of evidence for that is the observed expansion. I don't see any evidence for any old bloke in a beard, waving his hand, wishing everything into existence. In my opinion, the best speculation as to that what happened at that first tiny instant, and even before, is detailed in Professor Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe from Nothing"....the nothing being essentially defined as spacetime at the quantum/Planck level and termed "quantum foam" It is this quantum foam that has existed for eternity and what is essentially nothing. I find that speculation far easier to accept then that old bloke with the long flowing beard.

You then said,
"I believe the Universe is about 6,000 years old. For me, and not for scientists of the Big Bang persuasion, "faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) applies because my assurance of things hoped for is my Lord and my God Jesus Christ's triumphant return while scientists are not hoping for the Big Bang since scientists believe the Big Bang is an event of the past.

Scientists believe the Big Bang Theory is science. I postulate that the Big Bang Theory is based on faith"

Your first sentence is essentially nonsense and garbage. Many disciplines give us plenty of evidence of Earth itself being 4.5 billion years old. I mean really, while I'm trying to be polite, a 6,000 year old UNIVERSE is crazy!! You us some biblical reference in Hebrews, again the bible is an ancient obscure book, written in an obscure manner, in an age of obscurity, by equally obscure fishermen and goat herders. And of course the different branches/spin offs of Christianity are many, but thankfully the YEC version is rare. Won't comment on too much else as others have shown the stupidity of your beliefs, other then your last sentence
"Scientists believe the Big Bang Theory is science. I postulate that the Big Bang Theory is based on faith" Do you know what evidence is? Let's see, the best evidence for the big bang is (1) The observed expansion. (2) The CMBR at 2.7K, (3) The observed abundance of the lighter elements, and (4) the very tiny variations that exist within the CMBR (discovered by WMAP) being seeds for galactic evolution.

In summing re your faith based claims just let me say again, ancient man needed to explain the Universe around him before science arose. Today many believers simply are following generations of their own generational beliefs. eg: if I was born in India, I would likley be Sikh, if born in Iran, Muslim etc. The other point to the continuing festering of religion on society is the fear of many that death is final...the end, kaput, nothing left except back to probable more star formation and the circle continues. Many need the warm fuzzy comforting belief of a life after and eternal happiness, rather then the cold, end of it all we call death, no matter what the evidence tells us. Now I'm going for a VB and a packet of salted peanuts to contemplate my birth in the eruption of some ancient star.
Дед, а зачем тебе жить до 100 лет? Что бы - что? Бухать, и закусывать солёным арахисом ещё лет 20?
 
Roosters for ever:

Welcome to sciforums. Your posts here are on the borderline of what we consider acceptable here. I urge you to familiarise yourself with our Site Posting Guidelines, which you can find by viewing the topic list in the Site Feedback subforum. In particular, I direct your attention to the sections at the end, regarding preaching, proselytising and evangelising, as well as trolling.

It is fine by us for you to hold the views that you have expressed in your posts to the forum so far. However, you need to be wary about crossing the line into just asserting that your views are self-evidently true or correct. I'm not saying you have necessarily done that yet, but there are some suggestions of that kind of thing in your posts.
Thanks for the welcome. The views I have presented though, are as far as I know, scientifically validated theories...perhaps somewhat forcefully but all science I believe. I understand and also mentioned that scientific theories are not proof or the ultimate fact. They are essentially our best estimation at any given time, based on experiments and observational data. I also added that scientific theories are constantly being reviewed and mostly re=enforced or made more certain. eg: General Relativity. I will try and be a little less forceful though, particularly with YEC's
Actually, the books that made it into the bible were written by literate people and obviously not by illiterate fishermen or goat herders.

The fact that the four Gospels of the New Testament are so literate is, in itself, evidence that they are unlikely to have been written by any of the disciples of Jesus most of whom were, as you say, very probably illiterate.

That's true of the Old Testament writings. The New Testament authors were a little more worldly. They were certainly aware of the Roman empire and were familiar with the eastern Mediterranean region, at least.
Hmmm, I would have some argument about being literate, at least with regards to Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and Moses. The scientists that I am aware of around that time were the likes of Eratosthenes, (the bloke who pretty well showed the Earth was a globe) Pythagoras of geometry fame, and Aristotle. Not sure if they contributed to the bible. The final point that I will mention is in the obscurity of the writings. reminds me somewhat of Nostradamus and his so called predictions. Also as an old bugger, I admit I have forgotten plenty about the biblical writings. In summing, the lack of scientific verified content, the obscurity in many of the writings, and the participation of known scientists of around that era. But hey! I am waiting to be enlightened otherwise.
Is that supposed to be some kind of link?
It was a link to the Carl Sagan narrative of the "Pale Blue Dot" photograph. I would guess most here are familiar with it....
In my very humble opinion, should be compulsory learning in primary schools everywhere.
The big bang theory isn't actually about the first instants of how the universe started. At present, we can't investigate those first tiny fractions of a second, so the big bang theory doesn't attempt to consider them.

The question of what, if anything, caused the big bang is not something that the theory attempts to answer.
Rightly or wrongly I took it to mean our laws of physics and GR simply failed us at that Planck/Quantum level, the same way they fail us at the singularities of black holes. In other words, even GR, which gives us the same answers as Newtonian mechanics does within the Newtonian parameters, (albeit it even more refined with much more complicated mathematics and calculations, which we don't need for Earth based Newtonian mechanics) has limitations. Even though the laws of physics and GR fail us at that Quantum/Planck level, most cosmologists and astronomers, (as far as I know and have read) reject the definition of a singularity of infinite density and spacetime curvature. Which to me seems to be telling us we have a surface of sorts at and below that level. Or perhaps the matter that has fallen into the black hole singularity, has resumed back to the quantum foam Professor Krauss speculates and defines as possible nothing. I mention the Casimir Effect at this time demonstrating that "empty space" isn't truly empty but seething with virtual particles and quantum foam. Or I did find this when googling difference between virtual particles and quantum foam... " Virtual particles and quantum foam both describe the turbulent, energetic nature of empty space at microscopic scales, but they differ in scope: virtual particles are the individual, fleeting pairs of matter/antimatter popping in and out of existence, while quantum foam is the theoretical, roiling "landscape" or spacetime fabric created by these fluctuations. Virtual particles are the "bubbles," and quantum foam is the "foam" itself.
Quantum Foam (or Spacetime Foam): Proposed by John Wheeler in 1955, this concept suggests that at the Planck scale (
10-3510 to the negative 35 power
meters), spacetime itself is not smooth but turbulent and violently curved, characterized by constant creation and destruction of virtual particle pairs. It is the "texture" of space at the smallest possible scale." Yes, I understand the above is speculative or simply hypothetical. Will we (scientists that is) eventually derive an evidenced based theory from that speculation?

That book is a popular science book, not a research paper or a textbook.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the obfuscation that Krauss employs to try to redefine "nothing" to mean "quantum foam", or whatever. A universe from quantum foam isn't the same as a universe from nothing, in my opinion. Not that I'm claiming the universe came from nothing. I don't know where it came from. There are quite a few ideas out there - some more plausible than others. We simply don't know which is right, though - if any.
Have you read the book? Perhaps as Krauss suggests, the quantum foam is nothing, or at least as close to nothing (that we normally define as nothing, zilch, nada, sfa, no nuttin!) as we can get and is eternal. it also allows for other scientific speculative ideas such as multiverses. The fluctuation that is speculated to have arisen from the quantum foam, giving birth to our universe,(the big bang) also occurs in other places. It also puts an end to the big bang being some sort of explosive event, instead of simply the evolution of space and time, "AS WE KNOW THEM"
It is clear, however, that a narrative involving a God creating a magical garden with a talking snake is not a plausible scientific explanation.

Yes. Young Earth Creationism is a non-starter. There's far too much science stacked up against it. It's a faith-based, fringe belief motivated by religious fundamentalism.

It's not crazy. It's just wrong. In the absence of evidence, the universe could be 6000 years old. It's just that all the physical evidence we have points to it being far older than that.
On that we are totally in agreement. Perhaps though it is crazy wrong!:) continued:
 
The bible is hardly an obscure book. It is the best selling book of all time.

It is true that people's religious beliefs tend to be highly correlated with those of their parents. Religion is passed on through indoctrination, typically starting at a very young age.

Religious people seldom consider why they have been so "lucky" as to be born in one of the places in the world where the majority of the local population has settled into belief in the One True Religion. I think that a lot of them assume - if they give it any consideration at all - that they would somehow have come around to their current religious belief, had they been born somewhere different.

Kermos (in the thread from which this one was split) tried to make his own belief system a very small target, by trying to shift the onus of proof to his opponents to prove a negative. What he should try to do, if he had any integrity, is to attempt to make a positive case for why his own religious beliefs are true. But he has tried to skip out on that, too, by claiming that he believes what he believes entirely because of "faith" - which actually means he just became convinced of the truth of certain religious claims without appealing to any evidence for them. In other words, he has effectively admitted to having an irrational belief. At the same time, he is very coy about any personal "spiritual" experiences he may or may not have had, most likely because he knows he can't meet any reasonable onus of proof when it comes to those. I actually think he's embarrassed that the basis of his belief system is on such shakey ground.

Kermos doesn't understand that point, despite having it explained to him three or seven times.
On that we are totally in agreement.
Perhaps though it is crazy wrong!:) OK accepted. Just one comment...Not sure I can agree on the bible not being obscure. I would say the many interpretations taken by the many branches of Christian based religions points to some obscurity at least. But again, I'm no expert on the bible and was once thrown out of bible class at school.


I'm not sure if it's very helpful to try to distinguish the "fact of evolution" from the "theory of evolution". What do you mean by those terms?
Evolution is a fact. Agreed? The theory of evolution though, or that exact pathway, methodology and time line is open for debate on evidence being discovered every day. In the same way Gravity is a fact. I mean I would balk at telling Kermos how to prove the existence of gravity. The theories of gravity though, Newtonian mechanics and GR while each working well within their parameters, do not reveal to scientists why mass/energy should warp spacetime, and why that warping or curvature, should exhibit itself in what we define as gravity.
As I told Dave earlier today, I am not against religion or people needing that warm cozy comforting feeling of a life after death...the cold stark reality of death being the end all is not scary to me. as I told Dave, It just annoys me when religious people start dragging science down to the level of the supernatural nonsense I believe religion is. I hope I have a couple of more decades left. But yeah, I may walk outside tomorrow morning and get hit by a meteorite. While I am not a scientist, I have read a few scientific publications...The First Three Minutes: Steven Weinburg.... The Demon haunted World: Carl Sagan...Black Holes and Time Warps: Kip Thorne...A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking... Thanks again for the welcome, and hope I can add some interesting interpretations, scientifically based of course, and always open for rebuttal, or modification.
.
 
One teaching from the NT that you need to understand and apply to every story in every discipline is "Separate the wheat from the chaff."
 
Also worth noting that one can be Christian, as an ethical system based on JC's ministry, while atheist or agnostic. This probably describes a lot of Unitarians, at least in the US branch. I'm a Jesus fan, but consider the hypothesis of an overarching personal being pretty untestable. I'm agnostic on some underlying consciousness in nature connecting all life, but doubt that it's at all akin to a person or to something quasi-parental that, y'know, smites, floods, or develops plans for each of us like some sort of personal coach.
 
I was never a Christian-- was raised atheist, converted to paganism in my young adulthood --and monotheism has never made sense to me. I've read its arguments and Christian theology, and there's simply nothing about it that necessitates only one god. Polytheism has always made more intuitive sense to me, even when I was an atheist.

Nothing about Christianity seems especially unique, if you examine Greek mystery cults. Divine love and compassion, salvation of the soul from a dreary afterlife, purification of base materiality, these are present in pretty much all of them. So even the "good" parts of Chrisitanity...I can find that in Orphism and the Dionysian mysteries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: C C
I was never a Christian-- was raised atheist, converted to paganism in my young adulthood --and monotheism has never made sense to me. I've read its arguments and Christian theology, and there's simply nothing about it that necessitates only one god. Polytheism has always made more intuitive sense to me, even when I was an atheist.
Does the many not intuitively suggest a one at the top, or that the many are aspects of the same? If one's concept is of a deity/god/entity that has no beginning, for example, Occam would suggest a singular rather than multiple, surely? Does paganism even contemplate the eternal?
Nothing about Christianity seems especially unique, if you examine Greek mystery cults. Divine love and compassion, salvation of the soul from a dreary afterlife, purification of base materiality, these are present in pretty much all of them. So even the "good" parts of Chrisitanity...I can find that in Orphism and the Dionysian mysteries.
Christianity has absorbed the traditions of many others. It's easier to convince someone to your ways if they're not that dissimilar to what you're already doing. "You celebrate the winter solstice? Well, it just so happens that we could have an important date around there... um... ah, yes, how about an important birthday?" That sort of thing. Many of the stories in the Bible, OT, will have roots elsewhere, as traditions were passed down orally from the very early days, and would have spread to all parts.

I was a Christian. Catholic, even. But by the age of 10 I realised I had no faith. Why are we doing that? Why this? Who says we should? And the answer always came back to a tradition I just didn't feel within me. No connection. It was just instructions without purpose, or at least without a purpose that I couldn't achieve independently of that particular instruction set. Or any set other. It might have helped that I'm in a Christian country, so that religious thinking is embedded into our laws and ways. So there's always a sense that I'm following a watered down religious instruction simply by growing up and living here. But the big tenet of the religion, the big-kahuna, I just don't know. And I'm not a follower of Pascal. :)
 
And I'm not a follower of Pascal
Yes, always found that pretty weak sauce. I couldn't see how any supreme being would much care if I was conducting a wager on its existence in hopes of securing a place in the harp section. Surely if it were omniscient, tracking sparrows and human brain states, it would not be wasting wrath on humans who were simply lacking evidence on something to pray to.
 
Yes, always found that pretty weak sauce. I couldn't see how any supreme being would much care if I was conducting a wager on its existence in hopes of securing a place in the harp section. Surely if it were omniscient, tracking sparrows and human brain states, it would not be wasting wrath on humans who were simply lacking evidence on something to pray to.
I chose the better option for me when the doubts started to stack up, put it to one side it will work itself out, called the head in the sand technique.
 
[...] Nothing about Christianity seems especially unique, if you examine Greek mystery cults. Divine love and compassion, salvation of the soul from a dreary afterlife, purification of base materiality, these are present in pretty much all of them. So even the "good" parts of Chrisitanity...I can find that in Orphism and the Dionysian mysteries.

Christianity certainly wasn't the earliest religion to entertain spiritual equality, and perhaps not even social class elimination in an afterlife (that attracted the Roman or European poor so much to the movement). And like most ideologies it was hypocritical or spectacularly inconsistent in what it advocated.

But it's the one that did influence the Enlightenment (and vice versa), both in terms of challenging its dogmas and trying to transfer/convert its moral, social justice[3], and spiritual and post-death egalitarianism material (etc) to secular philosophy (Kant and others were undeniably indulging in the latter).

And after the French Revolution, there were proto-anarchists in the early 19th-century criticizing both the classic liberalism[2] of the Enlightenment and the evolving pre-Marxist socialist schools of thought[1] for still trying to mimic and continue those aspects of Christianity. Instead of indirectly worshipping regulating concepts and principles as personified gods or supernatural forces, the masquerading "Christian" secular institutions had simply shifted to direct obeisance of these still purely invented, prescriptive abstractions. Finding alternative ways to exalt them as imperatives that must be followed.

Which includes the quest for a socioeconomic utopia on Earth clearly being a rip-off of either Heaven or the more terrestrial "Kingdom of God" set up after the apocalyptic return. And the hive-mind mentality of and common sharing of resources in collectivism (but still micromanged by a ruling regime of intellectuals and bureaucrats) reflected the Christian zombie faithful, resurrected to glorify a still existing privileged leadership (the Trinity or God family) in spite of the supposed radical equality they had attained (eradication of the former social classes).
  • - - - footnotes - - -

    [1] Max Stirner: Proudhon, like the communists, fights against egoism. That is why they are continuations and consequences of the Christian principle, the principle of love, of sacrifice for something universal, something alien. They complete, for example, in property, only what has long existed in the matter—namely the propertylessness of individuals.

    When the law says: Ad reges potestas omnium pertinet, ad singulos proprietas; omnia rex imperio possidet, singuli dominio, it means this: The king is the property owner, because he alone can dispose of and deal with “everything”; he has potestas and imperium over it. The communists make this clearer in that they transfer that imperium to the “society of all.” [another abstration rather than the concrete individual]

    So: Since they’re enemies of egoism, they are therefore Christians, or more generally, religious people, believers in ghosts, dependents, servants of whatever universal (God, society, etc.). Proudhon is also like the Christians in this, in that he attributes to God what he denies to human beings. He calls him the Propriétaire of the earth. With this he proves that he can’t think away the property owner as such; he comes at last to a property owner, but transfers him to the other world.

    The property owner is neither God nor the human being (“human society”), but the individual.

    [2] Max Stirner: Political liberalism, like everything religious, counts on respect, humanity, the loving virtues. That’s why it lives in endless annoyance. Because in practice people respect nothing, and every day the small possessions get bought up again by the bigger owners, and the “free people” become day-laborers.

    [3] Social Justice: History, Purpose and Meaning: The notion of social justice is based on the Christian doctrine of helping less fortunate people-the weak, sickly, and oppressed. To be sure, Jesus cared deeply about people. He went out of his way to help people facing injustices. The Bible is full of passages that advocate helping and caring for people. Instead of being motivated by power, pride, or material wealth, those clergy that follow the scriptures find purpose through acts of justice.

    Since the 1920s, social democratic governments in Western Europe have reinforced the view that all citizens should be treated equally. Society cannot be fair or just if it has different categories or types of citizenship, such as nobility and the rest of the population, whites as first class citizens and blacks as second class, dominant and subordinate (or oppressed) groups, etc.
 
Back
Top