Why dogs like to roll in shit and carcasses?

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Okay. I went back to thread 1 to review. You posted:

First: "I don't think it's so much camoflauge as it is heightening the odor."

I don't agree with this. Heightening the odor for what?

Second: "An added thought on the behavior is pack behavior.
A pack of dogs rolls in the same shit. In the same rotting carcasses.
A pack of dogs has a communal pack smell."

This is a very good point. I definitely agree that it is pack behavior, but I do not think that it is "communal pack smell" behavior in the sense that it is somehow decided on by the pack. It is to camouflage their own scent when on the hunt.

Third: I stated that: "They do it to conceal their own scent....They also piss on locations, out of instinct, so as to mark their territory ”

And you replied: "And you don't see the contradiction there?"

I do see why you might think there is a contradiction here, but I do not think that there is one. One the one hand, they conceal their scent for the aggressive predatory hunt. On the other hand, they mark their scent through their urine to be recognized by similar species so as to let them know that this is their territory. As pack animals, if another wolf (or a bear or mountain lion) were to decide to invade another wolf's territory (same species), he knows that he can expect a struggle or a fight with the alpha. I don't think that the prey would recognize this as such, although this is a good area to research.

The history of the evolution of mammalian behavior tells us that predatory mammals roll in shit and carcasses to hide (camouflage) their scent. If you come across any scientific sources to the contrary, I would be most interested in reading them.

Also, thanks a lot for telling me about the July, 2006 Scientific American article, "What Bird's See." I find it fascinating that primates reevolved a third cone from a mutation after losing two of the original four, but I do not fully understand the author's diagram on page 74 of the UV bird spectrum locus as being 3-dimensional compared to ours as being 2-dimensional. Perhaps when I reread that part at a later date, something will click.

Thanks a lot though!
I did briefly discuss this subject with my advisor and need to correct some of what I posted above. Evidently only canidae species (wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals, and dogs) mark their territory with urine. I was told that mountain lions mark their territory by kicking up dirt in certain areas with their hind feet and also by scrape marks. This is also consistent with my own observations of grizzly bears in Alaska. They seem to mark their territory by making huge scrape marks on large trees. I have seen this. There are trees almost two feet in diameter with 2-3 foot vertical sections of the bark completely scraped off from about one-third or one-fourth of the diameter of the tree. I was quite puzzled by this behavior at first and had assumed that maybe they did this just to sharpen their claws. Canidae urinate to mark their territory but one should not confuse the smell of urine with the scent of the predator on the hunt for the prey. I am stating this as an almost direct quote from a man whom I consider to be one of the most - if not "the" most - professional in his field.

Canidae roll in shit and carcasses to hide their scent. This may or may not have originated as a "pack behavior," but please do not deny this, as it is a fact very well known and undisputed amongst all animal behavior biologists. Even when scientists today go into the field to study a population or species - whether it be a herd of elk or gazelle or a bear or a moose - we all know that it is just common sense that you approach the species from the downwind direction - never from upwind! The same goes for deciding your safety options when confronted by a bear - are you downwind from the bear? If so, remain still. If he hasn't spotted you (they have very poor eyesight) chances are that he hasn't caught your scent.
Even when scientists today go into the field to study a population or species - whether it be a herd of elk or gazelle or a bear or a moose - we all know that it is just common sense that you approach the species from the downwind direction - never from upwind!

More non sequitur. What does this have to do with rolling in shit, Valich?

I still believe that the rolling behavior is far more complex than just hiding scent.

I repeat. Smelling like rotting meat is not a good sign as far as a prey animal would be concerned. The prey animal would quickly come to associate the smell of rotting meat plus shit plus dog to the coming attack. The smell of all three combined would be greater than the one.
If the behavior was only rolling in the shit of prey, then you'd have a better case. But it's not.

So. Please shove your arguments from authority up your authoritative ass.
Thank you.
Good day, sir.
It's already been shown in this very thread that Valich is a dishonest little shit in how he selectively edited his 'proofs' to back up his claim earlier in this thread. It's also been pretty much shown that he's a weaselly little bastard that refuses to even acknowledge when he's done something so dishonest (which I personally view as a foul act and truly find Valich to be a foul little bastard because of his actions). He is also weaselly and evasive as hell in how he squirms about bringing in arguments from authority. Naming some dickhead 'cougar expert' whose balls he licks. Trying to change the subject to this, that, and the other and pretend that these various non sequiturs are somehow able to prove his original assertion. And in the end simply claims his statement as 'scientific fact'. (The fallacy in claiming 'scientific fact' is one which I will pass up on discussion for the time being as I've gone on too many times about this and am frankly tired of talking about it. So, for the moment, I'll pretend that such a thing as 'scientific fact' is possible.)

Despite all that.
Despite my dislike. My distaste. And my constantly reinforced disgust for this weaselly little shit named Valich.
I'm going to give him a chance.
I doubt he'll surprise me by pulling off a hail mary though. I just really don't think he's capable. He'll probably pull some 'huh' statement out of his ass and pretend that he doesn't understand and maybe start talking about plate tectonics or a pre-rna world or something.

But. I'm giving him a chance.


Your statement that this rolling behavior is solely embedded in a 'covering up of scent' mentality in order to increase hunting efficiency is understandable. It is one of the obvious connections that people come up with when they ponder this type of behavior.
It's an 'obviously'.

However, I feel that it doesn't cover the situation enough.

As I've stated, multiple times, prey animals do not find the smell of rotting meat comforting.

Also. If a species of prey animal were being assaulted, on a regular basis, by a pack of dogs/wolves/jackals/whatever that smelled like a combination of shit/rotting meat/dog, then they would quickly come to associate this very powerful odor with that of the pack.
What gain has been had by making their odor that much more powerful?
I ask you. What fucking gain does a stealth hunter gain by making his odor 10 times (a random number not truly applicable) more powerful than his natural smell?

Now. If the behavior were limited to only shit from the prey animal itself or other herbivorous animals, then you'd have a point. Because, while the odor of the dog might be compounded, it would be difficult for the prey animal to associate the smell of its own shit with impending attack. There has to be some kind of mechanism to prevent this type of conditioning from occuring...

(Hmm. Although... memories of potty training come to mind.. interesting tangent but one that I'm not going to ramble on about here....)

Now. That question is one which is only for you to answer based on your own feelings/beliefs.
The following question is for you to back up your claim of 'scientific fact'.

Please do so good as to explain the methodology and experimentation that led to this ironclad 'scientific fact' that you are going on so authoritatively about.
Please. Tell me how you can be so sure.
And please. Don't just tell me that your advisor so and so said so. I'll tell you to shove any such answers up your ass.

Are you capable of answering my post?
It'll be a 'rebuttal', you understand. And we all know that you despise rebuttal. We all know that you think that people should just talk and talk and talk and even if one is talking a mountain of steaming shit, that the other should just nod and continue to massage his nutsack vigorously while bringing him to oral completion.

What say you, oh weaselly one?
I think I'm going to start calling you non sequitur. Would you like that?

You destroyed this thread the instant you blundered in with your "scientific fact".

Again. And again. And again. You refuse to respond to points.
You state your case as thought it were 'scientific fact'.
You intentionally edit your 'proofs' so as to back up your claim.
You refuse to acknowledge or apologize for said dishonesty.
Then you try to take the moral high ground because I am sick to the gills of your behavior.

You are the problem, Valich.
Not me.

I still suspect that you do it all on purpose.
That you're a troll.

A damned good one though.

In the meantime though, I'll accept your surrender.
Invert: Do you think I read your posts? You're an old grump. I read the first two or three words of those long insulting paragraphs and just laugh. Waste your own time. You're posting self-fulfilling prophesies of what I stated above. Everything that I posted before this was related to "dogs rolling in shit and carcasses" and then I responded to other comments about other mammals leaving their scent via urine or smelling them as predators.

For reference to another subject of research, I needed to look back on a previous thread that was posted two years ago and I couldn't help but notice how what you posted back then, were the "exact same words" - the exact same "insulting" words - as the ones that you still resort to using today. Why do you do this? This is "your" psychological problem - not anyone elses. It has no absolutely affect on anyone else except you.
I got it... it's a trophy smell. It's the smell associated with the hunt and the kill and is bound to impress. When dogs come upon the smelly stuff, a natural compulsion is triggered and they feel that they have to roll around in it to acquire the smell and it is evident that they enjoy it immensely. I think it has been proved that it doesn't act as camouflage.
Yeah I'm pretty confident you're right tablariddim.
It's obviously going to be both intimidating and impressive to other dogs if a dog wreaks of carcass and ungulate dung. It means he's hooked up to a bountifull territory, that's a significant thing to get across in the dog world.
Masking your scent from prey animals is foreign jiberish in the dog world.
To rivals wreaking of carcass and ungulate dung means he's healthy, well fed and well conditioned, and it means the same to prospective mates and companions.

As for valich, I'm completely beyond even taking him seriously enough to argue against him.
There's one dog expert I respect, Ray Coppinger, and the reality is I disagree with him on most things.
I consider myself a HUGE dog expert, I don't think there are many human beings on earth who have spent as much brainpower on understanding dogs as I have, it's actually unhealthy and embarrassing to the point I don't want to get into it with sciforumers.
Some cougar-cock-sucker has nothing on me let me just get that straight right now.
For years I've been discussing animals with real scientists and experts and I happen to know when it comes to dogs I'm unrivalled on this planet.
One of my special subjects is debating with cougar experts how badly some dogs would whoop a cougar's sorry ass.
I've learned the hard way that cougar experts are fucking idiots.
Yeah. Back to trying to ignore Valich's ignorant bullshit. It's only from time to time that he actually manages to pull me into his world of stupidity.
He's really an excellent troll.
It's like I'm a dog and he's a rotting carcass in the wood and I just have this overwhelming desire to roll in him and get his rotting smell all over me.
Blah blah blah blah blah.

And blind unsubstantiated speculative or imaginative posts are just the same as posting fantasy.

Quoting fantasy? You mean like you did when you deceitfully edited those quotes back when you were offering proof?

Site your sources: been then, done that, and seen this!

Cite yours, dipshit.
It's already been shown that you lied when you 'cited your sources' earlier in this thread.

I hope you do not try to make a habit of being dumb, stupid and argumentative all your life???

That's science for you.
Good job.
If one doesn't agree with you then they're just dumb, stupid, and argumentative.

If you have specific questions about this instinctive behavior, i.e., of canidae covering up their scent to hide it, I would be happy to research it more fully and/or ask my colleagues for further professional comments or for comments on guidance for you to follow.

As if anyone would believe you, Valich.
You're a dishonest little shit. Everyone knows that.

And blind unsubstantiated speculative or imaginative posts are just the same as posting fantasy. So I'm assuming that this thread has now gone into "Alice in Wonderland."

Yup. It went into Alice in Wonderland as soon as a deceptive little prick posted this garbage with the pretense of 'citing sources'.

"Rolling in strong smelling substances is a behaviour handed down from their ancestors who would do this to camouflage their own smell when out hunting. Smelling more like their environment would enable them to get closer to their prey before being detected. Although our pet dogs no longer need to hunt, some have retained the desire to do this, particularly after a bath or then they don’t smell ‘like themselves’. It’s a bit like us putting on perfume or aftershave to make ourselves smell more acceptable!" http://www.dogbehaviour.com/behaviou...obsessions.htm

"rolling in a maggot-infested carcass (to hide her own scent, no doubt)" http://usads.ms11.net/eulogy.html

"because they are trying to hide their scent from their prey" www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/66481.html

"they rub in dead animals to hide their scent from predators....
it's a natural instinct"

"Wolves, jackals and dogs roll in decomposing animals to hide their scent."

"Dogs will roll in nasty things to hide thier scent. In the wild, dogs have to hunt for thier food. If the animals that they hunt smell them those animals will run off. Therefore, by hiding thier scent with any kind of nasty smell, skunk, feces, ect.; they increase thier chances of catching something to eat." http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/s...36/an/0/page/0

"dogs have a primitive instinct to roll on decomposing things to hide their scent in the wild." www.fullerfamilyfarms.com/2005/09/page/7/
There is no doubt. Absolutely no question about this! And it is an accepted fact by ALL animal behavior biologists, that canidae species - and a few others - roll in shit and carcasses to hide their smell from their prey. Anyone who denies this is just trying to be argumentative and is ignorant of the facts. Site your sources: been then, done that, and seen this!


You've probably made it a habit to be dumb, stupid and argumentative all your life, but that is your choice. Wanker.
I think there are other chat forums where you (plural) might find a more welcome home (myspace.com and other chit-chat kiddy chat rooms).

And perhaps it is you who should go looking for a place where you are received with the pomp and circumstance you desire.
I find it interesting how you, someone who has never received an ounce of respect for any of his posts in his time here, should try to play as though you are able to advise long-time members (who dwelt here long before your idiotic person showed up. Tablariddim: Join Date: 11-08-99) to move on.

A question: Do you really think that anyone here has ever respected you for your 'contributions'? You're a laughing stock to those who have any experience with you, Valich. But, I suspect, to most you don't even cross their radar. A pure non-entity.

Move along, little boy.
You are not the authority you think you are.

This is certainly a "dumb, stupid, argumentative" idiotic, uneducated, and lead-to-nothing deadend response.

No more and no less than you deserve.
You should note that none of the people that view you as a disgusting little creep have any 'club' against you. We have all reached our conclusions quite on our own. Based solely on observation of your character.
You should be used to this by now. It's happened all your life, yes?
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This is certainly a "dumb, stupid, argumentative" idiotic, uneducated, and lead-to-nothing deadend response.

Exactly! That's why I copied your own words; feels different coming back at you eh? I won't say more as it seems I have a champion in the name of Invert who is much more eloquent than I in the art of insulting rebuttals.
No. He means rolling stones roll in shit and carcasses to camouflage themselves from Bob Dylan.
You're not being dumb, stupid, and/or argumentative are you?
Is this going somewhere?
He even sucked me into incorrectly correcting him. The correct quote would be "a rolling stone gathers no moss".

And I love to be argumentative.
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