Why do theists reject evolution?

exchemist said:
Some time ago I predicted that eventually Write4U would find himself talking to river and no one else!
It seems to be gradually coming true. But maybe he's happy with that. I suppose it's better than talking to your cat.
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No Mr. exchemist, it's better than talking to you! You can put that in your "supposition".

You know of course that in this particular sub-forum you are on river's turf.

And you are "Just :D" being DISRUPTIVE and OFF TOPIC and most certainly not "constructive"..... :(
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
I am probably over sensitive and perhaps reading between the lines, meaning I may well be imagining things, but sometimes I get the impression some theists dislike the theory of evolution for no apparent or expressed reason.

I am not a theist but have had the priveledge to listen to many who seem reasonable, sincere and well educated who see the Bible as a wonderful holy book that draws on analogy to guide humans by providing a basis upon which to build spiritual values and develop laws to help manage morality.

The Bible although not historic allows us to relate to our ancestors in the times they sort to offer a spirituality that was so much more than the superstitious barbarism of earlier pagan or heathen groups.

Learned and sensible theists accept that the Bible follows various writing styles but there is no reasonable arguement advanced to suggest anology is not perhaps the preferred method used to deliver messages as to law morality and indeed a structure to understand how the Earth had a begining and that indeed even humans are made of the same elements that are found in the Earth itself.

The great flood story being an anology causes us to think how the scientific evidence of mass extinctions could be seen as a description of the fundamental law of nature... that of survival of the fittest and that all species can be traced back to a common ancestor.
And our science now shows the anology to be helpful that indeed there were mass extinctions and that indeed all life can be traced back to living things in the past.

Yet many theists fail to regard the various anologies as helpful and revert to a superstitious approach to the wonderful stories and chose to behave like heathens who believe in actual gods that behave as if they were mere men and built a universe as if that god they claim as theirs were not much more than a workman building a barn....and so I ask why do they reject the beauty that is the Old Testament and seek to use its stories to create a distorted meaning of nature and the human role therein...and rather than accept the understanding, which we call science, that has been produced by the ordered existence delivered from contemplation of the anologies in the Old Testament we find they reject the understanding brought to us via science to merely promote a superstitious approach turning out lies of their own self centered belief that everything is for them and that nature and indeed humanity shall not stand in their way to have all things their selfish way.

How can they read their Old Testament and be so selfish and ignorant?

Alex
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For the record I happen to be a Theist who believes that YHWH evolved.....
and / or learned over infinite time in the past......
and then planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang type events as the Multiverse that we are in was being developed.
 
Michael 345 said:
Atheists here

I thought theist held the view god was absolutely perfect from the get go????

So what's with the YHWH evolved.....
and / or learned over infinite time???

:)
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That is what most Theists believe.....
it is one of their bad habits......
They CRUCIFY the Creator with their flawed and legalistic lack of understanding of their Scriptures that they hold dear!


By 1988 I was beginning to realize that there was something wrong with my understanding of the Jewish and Christian scriptures.......
so I prayed and asked for Wisdom with chutzpah......
and by 1990 I began to go through a process where my total lack of understanding of scriptures was shown to me through reading hundreds of near death experience accounts.

NDE accounts that contain a valid Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus are one of the primary ways in which this promise is being kept......

John 16:25


These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a04h

h. Who goes to heaven?
In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven. If we do not practice Love, we can only go so far and we will be made to incarnate somewhere out there in God's super Universe again and again (unlimited times) until we learn.
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Time is an INVENTION that is comparable to a bicycle, a SUV, a 737 or a canoe........
Time is used to take souls, spirits and bodies from point A to point B to point C and on and on and on......
 
Dennis Tate said:
These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."
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Yes and that is why Science evolved. It is the translation of the mathematical cosmic constants which guide all change in the universe.
 
Not all theists reject evolution. I believe Pope Francis came out a few years back telling Catholics that evolution could be accepted, which would mean that Genesis is an allegory to the RCC. But there are many theists who believe in evolution and treat Genesis as literal. And then there’s also something known as “theistic evolution,” that sort of supports evolution to a certain starting point, while preserving Genesis as literal.

“ Not all theists” applies here, I guess.
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
I am probably over sensitive and perhaps reading between the lines, meaning I may well be imagining things, but sometimes I get the impression some theists dislike the theory of evolution for no apparent or expressed reason.

I am not a theist but have had the priveledge to listen to many who seem reasonable, sincere and well educated who see the Bible as a wonderful holy book that draws on analogy to guide humans by providing a basis upon which to build spiritual values and develop laws to help manage morality.

The Bible although not historic allows us to relate to our ancestors in the times they sort to offer a spirituality that was so much more than the superstitious barbarism of earlier pagan or heathen groups.

Learned and sensible theists accept that the Bible follows various writing styles but there is no reasonable arguement advanced to suggest anology is not perhaps the preferred method used to deliver messages as to law morality and indeed a structure to understand how the Earth had a begining and that indeed even humans are made of the same elements that are found in the Earth itself.

The great flood story being an anology causes us to think how the scientific evidence of mass extinctions could be seen as a description of the fundamental law of nature... that of survival of the fittest and that all species can be traced back to a common ancestor.
And our science now shows the anology to be helpful that indeed there were mass extinctions and that indeed all life can be traced back to living things in the past.

Yet many theists fail to regard the various anologies as helpful and revert to a superstitious approach to the wonderful stories and chose to behave like heathens who believe in actual gods that behave as if they were mere men and built a universe as if that god they claim as theirs were not much more than a workman building a barn....and so I ask why do they reject the beauty that is the Old Testament and seek to use its stories to create a distorted meaning of nature and the human role therein...and rather than accept the understanding, which we call science, that has been produced by the ordered existence delivered from contemplation of the anologies in the Old Testament we find they reject the understanding brought to us via science to merely promote a superstitious approach turning out lies of their own self centered belief that everything is for them and that nature and indeed humanity shall not stand in their way to have all things their selfish way.

How can they read their Old Testament and be so selfish and ignorant?

Alex
Click to expand...
You might ignore how the theory of evolution was born. It wasn't from Greeks thinking humans were a transformation from sea animals, or from other religions or philosophies but from Kant, the German dude.

Kant was the first to connect chimpanzees and Orangutans as the primates which suffered changes to become humans.

At the same time, Kant wrote and entire book describing the superiority of the white race and mentioning the black race as filled with stupid and good for nothing people.

Evolution in those times had the exclusive meaning of a change from inferior to superior, from worst to better and from simpler to more complex. Today, in order to cover up such an error in the theory, the "technical term evolution" has acquired a different meaning. Lol.

The Europeans, who were a solid racist society, found the opportunity to use both ideas from Kant, that humans were descendants of apes and that the black race where humans who never evolved. They pointed the black race as the image of the passing from primate to human, while other humans evolved and became superior as the white race was considered.

So, by deliberated ignorance, because you never had the initiative of finding the origin of this racist theory of evolution, you are believing in a fallacy, because such theory is not science at all, it was born thru philosophical means and not by observation in nature.
 
Luchito said:
Today, in order to cover up such an error in the theory, the "technical term evolution" has acquired a different meaning. Lol.
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You might as well say "In order to cover up the errors in Newton's theory of gravity, the technical term "gravity" has a acquired a different meaning (as per Einstein)".

Here's a primer in Science 101:
Science gets stuff wrong at first. At its very core, it is a process of incremental improvement, as earlier models are replaced with more predictive models. Thus endeth the lesson.


To suppose that early models of science are "covered up" by improved theories is to holler from the hilltops that you are anti-science.

Luchito said:
So, by deliberated ignorance, because you never had the initiative of finding the origin of this racist theory of evolution, you are believing in a fallacy, because such theory is not science at all, it was born thru philosophical means and not by observation in nature.
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All explanations we had to describe our world were at one time, wrong. We have improved them until we've got good working models. We observe, and the theory explains our observations.

We know how evolution works. We can prove it by going to any pet store of aquarium shop.
Breeding critters pass on traits via genes in the germ cells. These copies are not always perfect. This results in offspring that physically diverge from their ancestors over time. We can manipulate these genes and know what results we will get.

What you may be disagreeing with is - not evolution (which is demonstrable fact) - but evolution by natural selection.
 
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Luchito said:
You might ignore how the theory of evolution was born. It wasn't from Greeks thinking humans were a transformation from sea animals, or from other religions or philosophies but from Kant, the German dude.
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Nope. The first (somewhat incorrect) theory of evolution came from Jean-Baptiste Lamarck in 1802. Kant proposed a theory of stellar (not human) evolution; how the stars collapsed into their present form, for example. In fact he explicitly stated "How life unfolds we do not know; we only know that it does."

I suspect you just googled "evolution" and got some hits on Kant, so you went with that without understanding what he was saying.
So, by deliberated ignorance
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Sounds like you have some learnin to do!
 
Luchito said:
You might ignore how the theory of evolution was born. It wasn't from Greeks thinking humans were a transformation from sea animals, or from other religions or philosophies but from Kant, the German dude.
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Kant - no

Luchito said:
Kant was the first to connect chimpanzees and Orangutans as the primates which suffered changes to become humans.
Click to expand...

Which is incorrect but let's see what else you got

Luchito said:
Evolution in those times had the exclusive meaning of a change from inferior to superior, from worst to better and from simpler to more complex. Today, in order to cover up such an error in the theory, the "technical term evolution" has acquired a different meaning. Lol.
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Words do change and may accumulate new meanings

Errors in theories don't get covered up - you b appear to have no problem finding

And why do we need to ponder the history of the word going back to a definition no longer in use as regarding the evolution of life?

I don't see any lol humour in the situation, although I have seen such reactions in many post as a indication the person posting seems to laughing at the dumb person not seeing the obvious error the smart poster picked up. Except the picked up (error) does not exist

:)
 
Write4U said:
Yes and that is why Science evolved. It is the translation of the mathematical cosmic constants which guide all change in the universe.
Click to expand...

Actually... I think that this is accurate.....
I am of the belief that our Creator is first and foremost a scientist and we humans are being taught some actually extremely simple lessons. Selfishness leads to destruction....... love for others produces very different long term results in our own lives and for everybody around us. We are now about to be shown how to take these simple principles to the whole world.... and not merely to our immediate homes and neighbourhoods.
 
sideshowbob said:
Why couldn't those simple principles have evolved?
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Actually.... I agree that they evolved....
but I believe that these principles evolved in higher energetic invisible dimensions over infinite time in the past.

I believe that more than ninety percent of evolution took place in the higher energetic dimensions explained by String Theory.

I believe that the complexity plus relatively low energy of this four dimensional space time continuum is the ultimate place to be taught the really important lessons.
 
Michael 345 said:
Atheists here

I thought theist held the view god was absolutely perfect from the get go????

So what's with the YHWH evolved.....
and / or learned over infinite time???

:)
Click to expand...


Here is how I explained this in response to a reply related to the ancient "gods" of the Greek myths......
and a Satan or fallen former Covering Cherub.

In a sentence I consider "God" the Creator to be a Scientist / Inventor who just happens to be composed of
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy explained by String Theory.

..... "
Personally..... the existence of extremely powerful life forms would fit with my idea of
God evolving or learning over infinite time in the past. Some or even many of the
ancient traditions about "gods" could have a basis in a more Theistic Evolutionary Theory.


My guess is that Intelligence first came into existence in fundamental energy.....
assuming M-Theory I would guess that the energy of the eleventh space time dimension would begin to
think and plan and experiment first........
then later on fundamental energy would be formed into a more complex tenth dimensional continuum......

then later into a ninth dimensional continuum.....

later on an eighth dimension teeming with many life forms.....

later on a seventh dimension also teeming with life that on one level are somewhat "experimental"......

later on a sixth dimension teeming with life forms much less complicated than we humans are but with capabilities far beyond ours.....

later on a fifth dimensional space time was invented.... (I suspect as something of a prison environment for spirits who are very selfish and
predatory)..... (actually a lot of really angry and hateful beings may well exist in the energy of the sixth dimension as well)........ or it may be that
fifth and sixth dimensional space - time later on became more and more of a prison environment.......
but perhaps at first those levels of energy / life may have been very different indeed.

I suspect that to a degree... former Covering Cherub Halel who fell and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because it was in
Eden that he was in charge of...... I assume that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is somewhat like a program that increases
understanding exponentially but..... also leads to a terrible temptation.

I believe that the anger that former Covering Cherub Halel felt as he was thrown down......
would astonish us..... assuming that he was formed out of perhaps eighth or ninth dimensional energy......
the emotions that he would face would be far greater than the levels of jealousy or anger that we humans go through
so often.

To some degree... I do suspect that
Satan is acting in the mind set of the Milgram Experiment and is testing all of us
but perhaps..... if he within himself most admires the people who learn to love others.....
as opposed to becoming predatory and selfish......
This would compare to Stanley Milgram Ph. D. of course being more impressed with the
"Teacher Subjects" who DO NOT zap the "Learner Subject" with dangerously high levels of electrical pulse as they would deliberately
enact giving a wrong answer.......?!


http://www.sciforums.com/threads/can-satan-repent.164107/page-3#post-3670296
 
Write4U said:
Yes and that is why Science evolved. It is the translation of the mathematical cosmic constants which guide all change in the universe.
Click to expand...

I do think that that is true.....
and one near death experiencer was shown that much of science comes by "inspiration."


"Science, technology, and other benefits, they told me, had been gifts bestowed on humanity by them - through inspiration. People had literally been led to those discoveries, many of which had later been perverted by humanity to use for its own destruction.



We could do too much damage to the planet. And by the planet, they meant all of God's creation. Not just the people, but the animals, the trees, the birds, the insects, everything.

They explained to me that their concern was for all the people of the world. They weren't interested in one group getting ahead of other groups. They want every person to consider every other person greater than their own flesh. They want everyone to love everyone else, completely; more, even, than they love themselves. If someone, someplace else in the world hurts, than we should hurt we should feel their pain. And we should help them. Our planet has evolved to the point, for the first time in our history, that we have the power to do that. We are globally linked. And we could become one people." (Howard Storm)
https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/howard-storm.html#a04
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sideshowbob said:
So Christianity doesn't provide enough voodoo for you; you have to spackle on another layer of voodoo. XD
Click to expand...

Yes..... I believe that Theology is actually the study of Psychology except that it is a variation of Psychology that deals with Intelligences and intelligences who
exist in higher invisible dimensions of space and time as explained in String Theory.
 
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