Why do people believe in God?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Write4U, Nov 15, 2023.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,237
    kx000:

    I was reading back over this thread and noticed a couple of your posts I didn't see before.
    There are a couple of things you might like to think about, here.

    The first one is this thing about atheists hating God. Do you understand that atheists don't believe in God? It wouldn't make much sense to hate something that you don't believe in, would it? I mean, you could hate it as a concept or an idea, I suppose, but not hate the actual thing.

    For example, I don't believe that Luke Skywalker is a real person. So, while I might express my liking or disliking of him as a fictional character, it would be wrong to claim that I hate him as a person. Suppose that you believe, for some reason, that Skywalker is real, that I don't believe that, and that I hate the idea of Luke Skywalker. I suppose you could be forgiven for feeling offended, but you appreciate that, from my point of view, I don't actually think I'm hating a real person. Right?

    I think God is a lot less clearly defined as an idea than Luke Skywalker is. Personally, I would put hating God on a similar footing to hating Luke Skywalker. That is - even if I really disliked a particular fictional character a lot, it would not be in the same ballpark as the sort of dislike I might express regarding an actual person who could actually act in the world.

    The second think to think about is: why would an omnipotent being hate anybody? What would be the point? An omnipotent being can do whatever it likes. It could, for example, snuff the hated person out of existence in an eyeblink. But, also, is this omnipotent being the same one who chose to create that atheist in the first place? Did the omnipotent being create the atheist just so the being could hate the atheist, then? Secretly, then, wouldn't the omnipotent being be content in itself? It clearly wanted something to hate, so it created that thing. What could it possibly have to complain about?

    A third thing to thing about is the whole suffering thing. This omnipotent God clearly wants suffering. If he didn't want it, he could end it in an eyeblink or - better - choose not to create it in the first place. It would be wrong of you to shift the blame to the atheist whom your God chose to create. You should place the blame squarely where the buck stops: with the omnipotent being who could end all suffering (or not allow it in the first place), but who - for whatever reason - chooses it.
    When do you think this rebellion against God happened? Or are you thinking it's constantly happening?

    The only reason we are suffering - if there's an omnipotent God - is because the God wants it to happen. After all, he could stop it at any time.

    Is your God also omniscient? If so, then he created human beings knowing full well that they would "rebel". Therefore, it follows that he wanted that to happen, which against means that he isn't on very solid ground if he's whingeing about it now.

    Also think about this: if this God worth worshipping? He could end suffering (or not allow it in the first place), but he chooses to enable it. If this omnipotent God chooses to create human beings so that he can punish them, then he is evil. Even if he is real, he isn't worthy of worship.
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure this argument stacks up, James R, as it seems to conclude that the property of "being real" is sufficient to change one's view of the thing, from "hate" to "not hate". Surely if you "hate X" while not thinking that X is real, you would surely still "hate X" if it was real? Whatever it is you hate about the concept of X would still be there if X is real, would it not? For example, someone produces a concept for a new car, and let's say I hate what they have come up with. If they go ahead and make it real, am I going to hate it any less, assuming the only change in my understanding is that it is now real rather than just a concept?
    I therefore think it reasonable to conclude that if you hate what you think to be a fiction then you also hate what others think of as real, because other than the property of "being real" there's no other difference in what you're considering.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    So, we're down to the point where atheists need to just censor what they're not capable of answering.

    And you even had to lie about it. You decided to move my post, an episode of pursuing your own emotional needs.

    Moreover, to cover for yourself, you don't even try to make a case, but, rather, just make demands↗ and then punish someone↗ for failing to satisfy you.

    This was just the pure politics of censoring what you're not capable of answering.
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I believe that Tiassa posted something. It was not a public apology or a retraction.

    Nothing has been censored. The off-topic material split off from this thread can be found in post #1 of the following thread:

    Insinuations, accusations and immorality
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,820
    Again, it wasn't off-topic. You just let your emotions get the best of you, and for a fallacy↗.

    It was so irrational and unnecessary, James.

    By excluding relevant material from the discussion, you have in fact censored.

    And the thing is, it all remains strangely relevant; your behavior makes the point better than my argument ever can. Like I said↗: Why do people believe in God? Largely because they learned to, and it's a lot of trouble to then not believe, and the only promise such a conversion can offer is uncertainty. And in terms of both uncertainty and the trouble of transforming belief, atheistic solipsism is one of the easiest and most apparent fulfillments of anti-atheist prejudice and expectation among religious people.

    Discussing that solipsism is only irrelevant to why people believe in God if one is just not capable of answering.

    Furthermore, we should note the discussion was relevant to W4U's thread in two ways; not only did his atheistic solipsism complicate his discussion with me, it is also part of the apparent shift in rhetoric after the title and opening post. You might observe, I'm not the only one discussing that shift with him.

    And in disrupting the discussion as you have, you kind of went and made the point for me.
     
    Write4U and Sarkus like this.
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    So one can give an unknowable God any properties one sees fit? Is this not what has happened and with disastrous results?

    Lest we forget.
    The Sect-less Religion
    https://medium.com/minhaajmusings/the-sect-less-religion-4c2439c303ef
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    But I am not talking about individuals (my wife is catholic). It is the institutions and their religious leaders that have been and are becoming again the cancer in the body spiritual.

    If a person walks the walk instead of talking the talk regardless of belief, I can respect that.
    But religion allows for walking the path of violent enforcement and that is evil. My familiy and I have been victim of such evil (destruction of a priceless sculpture), I rather deal with atheists who have no means of being forgiven and have to carry the burden of guilt personally for the rest of their lives.

    Religious people scare me, but they need not fear from me. OTOH, religious people hate the atheist in me and I fear them, justly so!

    Religious Terrorism
    more..... https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/33557_6.pdf
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    10,298
    One can come up with any definition or understanding of God that you want. Just don't then assume you're talking about the same God as the next person.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I believe that I am the one who declared that there are as many gods as there are believers.
    The strange thing is that no one knows the true definition of God. It is an unknowable quantity.

    But I am not talking about individuals (my wife is catholic, but spent her life nursing sick people).
    A good religious person is just a good person. I don't buy this "Original Sin" story.
    I don't need anyone to tell me that I am sinful. To those who accuse me, clean up your own backyard before commenting on my lawn.

    It is the institutions and their religious leaders that have been and are again becoming the cancer in the body spiritual. And the Sheep that do as they are told.

    If a person walks the walk instead of talking the talk regardless of belief, I can respect that.
    But religion allows for walking the path of violent enforcement and that is evil. My familiy and I have been victim of such evil (destruction of a priceless sculpture), I rather deal with atheists who have no means of being forgiven and have to carry the burden of guilt personally for the rest of their lives.

    Religious people scare me, but they need not fear from me. OTOH, religious people hate the atheist in me and I fear them, justly so!

    Religious Terrorism
    more..... https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/33557_6.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Can one and be right? One god with some 6 billion interpretations?
    More Prone to Believe in God than Identify as Religious. More Likely to Believe in Heaven than in Hell. 2023
    https://www.gallup-international.co...ore-likely-to-believe-in-heaven-than-in-hell#
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    But all we need is one Holy Roller who is going to cleanse the Earth from Atheists and Apostates.
    And that is why I am scared of all of them.

    The last time I was in church accompanying a friend, the preacher told his congregation to always makes sure they know who they are dealing with and verify that they believe in god and never hire an atheist.
    This is recent history, so things have not changed very much since the 17 century.

    Religious people have been killing each other for 2000+ years. It's going on today.
    Religious hate is rampant!
    But when a rare mad scientist commits a crime, all of science is being blamed for being evil, go figure.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    But God(s) persists, why is that?
     
  16. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    842
    Where the hell do you live? Tehran?
     
  17. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    842
    Do you mean why do people get things wrong?
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Does it matter where I live? The question is valid everywhere! (I live in NW US)
    This many people? For this long? Without evidence?

    Robert Hazen explains how life began as an emergent property of a dynamic system of self-forming and self-referential patterns.

    But instead of showing the science, many school boards vote to include Intelligent Design as a alternate to evolution and in spite of several popes declaring evolution as fact!

    It is consciousness that has escaped examination, until fairly recently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2023
  19. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    842
    Yes I will refer you to flat earth again

    This thread was split from your off topic meanderings. Can you at least stick to one of the three which is ,"Why do people believe in god" This one?

    Again not relevant to why in the first place but contributes to why some religions persist.

    Prove me wrong and show me that you are actually capable of sticking to one line of thought on one thread.
     
  20. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    10,298
    Q: "Why do people believe in god?"
    A: "I think the question you should be asking is what are the issues with religion, and why people should not believe in God, so I'll answer those...."

    Reminds me of those people taking exams who didn't know the answer but wanted the teacher to know they knew something about something. The answer was correct... if only they had asked the right question.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Are talking about science or beliefs? How many people believe in a flat earth?
    Are you suggesting that all religious people believe in a flat earth? Where are you going with this?

    When was the first recognition of a spherical earth and by whom?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2023
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I am answering the question!

    The reason why people believe in god is the fact that universe operates in a manner that looks intelligent.
    But the "watchmaker" story is not a scientific observation. It's mythology.

    I am proposing a viable replacement for the concept of a "Causal God".

    You ask the question but you don't want to hear the answer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2023
  23. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    842
    That is better.

    Yes, we are intelligent pattern seeking mammals and we anthropomorphise objects and events.

    An active volcano is a result of seismic activity, unstable larva lakes and other geological features but to ancient man? Mother earth is angry, the mountain god is angry.
     

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