Why do Jews make such good scapegoats?

Roman said:
Do you think that societal scapegoats are a quantitative difference of the individual level, or qualitative?
Click to expand...

Mostly quantitative. However, I'm not sure the quantitative aspect accounts for way memes spread. The initial purveyor of the scapegoat consciously manipulates this phenomenon. It's quite interesting to me actually that along the course the meme's spread it can and likely will occur to other predators along the way that they may gain from its further proliferation - like the smell of good food in the kitchen, the idea strikes them as fundamentally good. Gah, it's so complicated (the details of how it plays out from case to case) it's hard to pic out a clear thing to discuss, but the priniciple is fairly simple. Taking advantage of it is just as simple for those prone to do so.

Like, do you think societies are simply the sum of their individuals and their psychologies, or that when a bunch of people get together, stuff emerges that wouldn't be ther eotherwise?

Hmm, well, yeah the sum of the individuals enables things that couldn't otherwise happen for sure. Mass psychology and all. It's definately a somewhat different topic than individual psychology. If I had the time and money I'd take courses in the area. The predators in question understand it intuitively.

You know that one guy at work who everyone can blame, and he takes it? Not the guy who's unlucky and actually messes up, but the one people blame because he's blameable.
Click to expand...

Hmm. That's a good question. Generally speaking I think of that particular issue differently.. as the guy in charge gets blamed... but I think you mean something different, as in a personality that basically asks for it. Generally I'd say it to be one of a few things, dependent upon the size of the group for one thing I guess... and well crap this one also gets complicated too. For a simple answer, I'd say that perhaps the individual is viewed as a dick by most, or weak.. or shit prolly somethin else. Maybe they're socially retarded. As long as a few people can agree that the person is "different" enough or maybe, rejectable enough... well, that's all it takes. Could be jealousy, each person can have a different reason for agreeing, but as long as they agree....

What makes that person blameable, and do those traits transfer to groups within societies?
Click to expand...

They can, yeah... but it's not necessary that they do. Bah I'm too tired to put more into it at the moment.
 
Hatred! It's a diversion from truth. I honestly never could find fault with Jews. I suppose that if I was Arab my feeling would be otherwise.
 
mountainhare said:
Why are we continually resting all of the blame on various countries, when obviously at least part of the blame rests with the Jews.
Click to expand...
It's possible that arrogance makes persecution worse; on the other hand, don't you think being persecuted would bring out arrogance? I think many people seek refuge in religion and mythology when reality gets too much for them (think of the Iraqi information minister with his promises of 'Allah will defeat the infidel'...)

But you seem to be considering this history from a purely secular point of view. Remember that in the last 2000 years, it's only recently that the Church hasn't been as powerful. How many centuries was it before the Catholic Church would admit that Galileo was actually right...?

So I think you have to consider that the history of Jews in Europe starts with persecution - the persecution of early Christians. Mostly Jews themselves, they were violently oppressed by the Romans (who saw them as a revolutionary sect within the Jewish people) and shunned and oppressed (I'm not sure how violently) by the Jewish leadership, who saw them as 'heretics'.

And somewhere within their doctrine was the concept of deicide, that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus. This was a small theological detail when Christians were a repressed sect. But once a Roman emperor converted and stopped persecuting Christians, the belief was used to continue persecuting Jews. For a long time.

During the Crusades on the Holy Land, not only were Muslims slaughtered but Jews both there and on the way. I'd imagine Muslims remember these events, especially when Bush blathers on about a 'crusade against terrorism'. I'd imagine the Jews remember too.

Most mainstream churches removed the concept of deicide from their doctrine because not only is it factually dodgy (the Romans held power at the time, and getting rid of a charismatic leader who might lead a revolution isn't uncommon) but they felt that without that idea sitting in the background, the Holocaust may never have happened.

Taking some of this history into account, I think the roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be explained succinctly (although maybe irreverantly) as:

Palestinians (after Jewish immigration): "Eek! Colonial Europeans. We've had enough of that!"
Jews (after riots): "Eek! Pogroms! We've had enough of that!"

Which is just another proof of culture and history being more important than race, since in this unfortunate case it divided people who are genetically very similar (i.e. slightly more so than random pairs of humans, who are already genetically close...)

And if you look at the history of Jews in America, with a history of religious tolerance and separation between church and state, where they weren't persecuted, I don't think you'll find that people think them arrogant. Perhaps more telling, they'll mostly be referred to - and refer to themselves - as Jewish Americans, rather than American Jews.

Well, the KKK might think they're arrogant, but since they waffle on about 'uppity niggers' because, well, those arrogant blacks want equal human rights, how arrogant ... I don't have much respect for their opinions.
 
mountainhare said:
Why are people on this board so scared to point this out? Why are we continually resting all of the blame on various countries, when obviously at least part of the blame rests with the Jews. Perhaps the elitist, segregatory attitude held by the Jews fueled racial/ethnic tension, which led to hostility, and then exile/riots/murder?
Click to expand...

I disagree that the Jewish peoples have been the source of problems. There is something on a deeper level going on, like a body with immune deficiency becoming ill with one form of sickness or another. Christianity with its witch hunts and Earth centric universe was sick. It is sick today with its Orwellian pity and weakness equals strength world view. The repeated downfall of transnational and transcontinental empires may be another illness. The body buckles, gasps, wheezes and chokes with the onslaught of ideological opponents radical liberalism versus aggressive Islam. There is something deeper at work and this brings westerners back to the need to take personal responsibility without resorting to this new age trend of passive self-flagellation for past errors.
 
On the same line of thinking, i.e., that it comes from "hatred," why did we start telling jokes about the Pollish? "Why did the Pollock cross the road?....," etc. We started calling Afro-Americans nigers, then blacks, now Afro-Americans, but that's a different story: the KKK and White Supremacist groups and all that, but what did we ever have against people from Polland?
 
1. Because they are neither Christian nor Muslim, and neither of those religions is historically tolerant.

2. Because they have disproportionately contributed to human advancement, which arouses jealousy.

3. Because everyone knows that God prefers them to other people; as do I, an atheist - so surely they have something going for them.
 
what did we ever have against people from Polland?
Click to expand...

My guess is that it has something to do with the comical image of the Polish cavalry riding out to take on the German panzers.

Although. According to Wikipedia, there were 16 Polish Cavalry charges in the 1939 invasion and most of them were successful...
Go figure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry


By the way. Every time I see this thread on the main page I fill in the "Why do the Jews make such good..." with "firewood."
Yeah. I know. Sue me.
 
I think Jews attract aggression for a few reasons. Foremost among them is that they are so tightly identified. So intentionally exculsive. So "Us and not you."

There are few groups in the same sphere that so so self-seperating.
 
I agree with Paul H. The Jews built a strong community identity for themselves around the ideal of holiness, which in itself strongly distinguished itself from the other cultures and religions which the first Jews lived in. Second, as a highly distinctive minority (much like the early Christians later on) who were seen as superstitious and general haters of the values of Greek/Roman civilisation, Jews made easy targets (as later on did the Christians before they became the state religion) for superstitious anger, fear or hate of the general public.

Anti-Semitism also has a dark side stemming from Christian interpretation of the Bible (especially the New Testament) and also in medieval history, when the Popes launched Crusades against the land of Palestine, where many Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians were murdered in cold blood. Modern anti-semitism was strongly based on pseduo-scientific theories of race and historical progression as well as the crackpot political ideas of Hitler and others. Also it has been strongly stoked by the actions of Israel in the past decades.

Karen Armstrong gives a good overview of the origins of anti-Semitism in 'The Battle for God' and 'The Crusades.'
 
we define ourselves by who we're not, as much as who we are. Scapegoats serve to reinforce social/familial cohesion since they are clearly not like us because of this trait/feature/behaviour, etc. They enable us to forget our differences and focus on our similarities.

Without scapegoats politicians begin to worry--or they should. I rather like the theory that the Neo Cons ruthlessly targeted millitant Islam to fill the post cold war void. It fits the model.

Rene Girards theory of mimetic aquisitiveness is worth reading regarding scapegoats.

http://www.jeramyt.org/papers/girard.html
 
Paul H said:
I think Jews attract aggression for a few reasons. Foremost among them is that they are so tightly identified. So intentionally exculsive. So "Us and not you." There are few groups in the same sphere that so so self-seperating.
Click to expand...
The Gypsies. And they are treated the same way.
 
Jews did invent the concept of a scapegoat, it was set free into the wilderness, but the other one was sacrificed as a burnt offering, so all-in-all, I think I'd rather be the scapegoat.

Jews did make good scapegoats, since in Europe, they were often wealthier than the peasant, due to a church edict that Christians couldn't loan money (what ever happened to that?). Also, until recently, they didn't have guns.
 
Don’t say anything bad about Jews

Don’t say anything bad about Jews, you can say anything about Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc. and that will be considered “freedom of speech”. If you say bad things about Jews then that is “anti-Semitism” and/or “hate crime”. So be careful especially if you live in USA or UK.
 
xxx said:
Don’t say anything bad about Jews, you can say anything about Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc. and that will be considered “freedom of speech”. If you say bad things about Jews then that is “anti-Semitism” and/or “hate crime”. So be careful especially if you live in USA or UK.
Click to expand...

I guess the difference is that Jews are a people, not a religion.
 
Vinyard said:
I don't think any of them are necessarily scapegoats, I think jews, blacks, mexicans etc ARE responsible for most of societies ills. Look at statistics!!! Everyone knows it, no one wants to admit it cause they are so afraid of being labeled a racist.

Look at the pre nazi germany jews, they owned everything!!! They totally had the Germans oppressed. Now look at what they are doing to the palestinians in israel! It no different, its just that now they have the backing of the USA. Not that I care that much, palestinians are no better. but its still an example of how Jews are. They bring it on themselves.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Your an idiot.

Anyway!

It seems like it does happen to Jews really bad! Did y'all know that it has also been happening to Hmongs throughout Asia as well! Hmongs are not allowed in most Asian countries. Which is why we are starting to see a lot of them here in America. But if y'all know any of them, ask them about the persecution they have suffered as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top