Why did Bin Laden turn to hit america

[James R]

Moderator note: Norsefire has been banned from sciforums for 7 days for anti-semitism

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You're missing the point.

And what point is that? That we of the Dar'al Harb are the evil ones.

Sorry it has been illegal to own slaves in this country since 1865, and any time that any slavery is uncovered in the United Sates it is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and it is a fact that in Africa legal slavery still exist, and that if you are from the House of Dar'al Islam, you will get a pass.

I figured you would say this however what do horse-riding bandits roaming across Sudan have to do with Islam? Because they have an Arabic name? Thievery and banditry have nothing at all to do with Islam. This is like trying to link the Thuggee to Hinduism and then saying it has everything to do with Hindus/Indians in general.

Well let see, The Sudan is a Islamic controlled government in the North, it has instituted a program on Islamization of the Sudan, and the imposition of Sharia law, the Government in the north is the employers and pay masters of the Janjaweed, and the United Nations definition;

The Janjaweed comprised Arab tribes, the core of whom are from the Abbala Rizeigat (camel herder) background with significant Lambo recruitment from the Baggara (cattle herder) people

Arab Muslims, Bedouin, majority Sunni, minority Shia, and other religions.

Let me ask this question, what the fuck does any of that have to do with anything that I have said? The fact is, the man targeted and shot up a Jewish School in LA and hit children, might I add. He was White and a member of the Aryan Nations group, why are you trying to deny the fact that this did happen? Also, why are you trying to put the blame on Muslims?

Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".

The fact is, the man targeted and shot up a Jewish School in LA and hit children, might I add. He was White and a member of the Aryan Nations group,

Really, and just when did this happen?

And if it did, guess what, that man would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, the only incident I can find even close to your example was a Neo Nazi who shot up a Jewish community center , and is now serving a life sentence.

Now how about the myriad of attacks by Muslims against Jewish School Children across Israel, Middle East and the world?

This covers only up to 2004;

Timeline of School Terrorism - Safe Havens International
The jeep was escorting a bus of 40 elementary school children from Kfar Darom, ... area of a Jewish community center in Los Angeles and killed several children . ... school employees and two school security personnel were killed by gunman in ... to be the largest terrorist attack on a school related target to date. ...

http://www.schoolterrorism.com/timeline.html

selected incidents;

•May 8, 1970 - Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli School bus killing nine children and three adults. Nineteen others were also crippled for life. The terrorists apparently knew the bus schedule and planned their attack based on this knowledge.

•May, 1994 – four Chechens armed with grenades and firearms hijacked a bus filled with teachers, parents and children in Southern Russia . The hostages were released after a multi-million dollar ransom was paid.

•March, 1997 – Seven Israeli school girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier while on a field trip in Bakura , Jordan .

•November, 2000 – A bomb targeting a school bus exploded in the Gaza Strip settlement of Kfar Darom killing two passengers and wounding twelve others, including five school children.

•September, 2001 – Two people died and three more were injured in a terrorist attack on a minibus loaded with school and kindergarten teachers near the Adam Junction in Israel .

•November, 2001 – A Palestinian gunman killed two students and wounded more than forty other passengers when he attacked their bus with an M-16 rifle at a bus stop in Jerusalem . An armed bystander and members of the Israel Border Police stopped the attack when they killed the gunman.

•June 18, 2002 – A homicide bomber detonated himself on a bus headed towards Jersusalem. The bus, which was carrying many students on their way to school, was destroyed, leaving nineteen dead and seventy-four others wounded.

•November, 21, 2002 – A terrorist bomber killed eleven people and injured almost fifty others in Israel when he blew himself up on a bus crowded with school children. The terrorist group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

•June 28, 2004 – One adult and one child were killed when a rocket fired by Hamas terrorists in the Gaza strip detonated in a nursery school in Sderot.

•September, 2004 – An attack by Chechen terrorists on a school in Belsan , Russia leaves hundreds dead and appears to be the largest terrorist attack on a school related target to date.

But I guess those children don't count as they are from Dar'al Harb.

 

[countezero]

I think it's funny how all the White Americans instantly got enraged by my comments when really, I'm commenting on a system that you yourself have and do benefit from, consciously or not.

You have no clue what my race or ethnicity is, nor do either matter to the points up for discussion here, which you would do well to remember.

Oh? I guess I forgot to congratulate you, you've filled your quota. This changes everything now that you have the representative/spokesmen of all American black people in office. Of course.

No, it does not change everything, which was never my argument, if you cared to read and try to follow it. My point was that the election of Obama is just another happening that proves America is far more tolerant of its widespread diversity that any other nation on Earth, because one cannot see a similar thing happening in any of the other democracies in Europe or Asia. I've challenged you to put forward a nation more tolerant than America. So far you haven't.

 

[Skeptical]

Buffalo

Your last post was seriously unbalanced. Certainly a lot of Muslims have killed Israelis. However, a hell of a lot more Muslims have been killed by Israelis. I am not sure of the ratio, but I know it is more than 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.

When you consider that all this began with America and Britain blatantly stealing the home of the Palestinian people, to hand it over to their Jewish friends, you have to admit that the evil done is massively greater on the Israeli side.

Of course, you cannot turn back the clock, and Israel is not going to cease to exist. But in view of the history, the Israelis should be bending over backwards to do everything they can to help the Palestinians. And they are doing the opposite.

The Jewish people were treated most abominably by Hitler's minions in WWII. Since WWII, those Jews who emigrated and became Israelis have been doing their damnedest to out-evil Hitler.

The fact that extremists among the Muslim people have been carrying out terrorist raids against Jews is not to be condoned. But you should at least have enough understanding to appreciate the degree of historical provocation.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

I will comment further on this post and others later however I wanted to comment on this for now.

Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".

You're being sensational here, please, let's not be silly. That isn't my argument at all. Do I think the West generally has an irrational fear and crazed ideas about Islam and Muslims? Yes, I think this stems from the Crusades period and how the West has historically viewed the East and the people thereof. I also, do admit that crimes have been commited, I admit this, I don't deny this. My argument is however that Islam and Muslims in general are not the problem. Nor does that mean that other Muslims outside of the area that is being discussed don't strongly object to the actions of some of our "brethren," nor does it mean that they have correct Islamic justification to do the things that they are doing. Meaning it's not an inherent part of Islam or Islamic practice. I have offered numerous religious arguments against X actions. I do realize that, yes, it is Muslims but you are grouping together bad apples with the rest of the bushel. Bad apples, extremists, and so on exist everywhere, in every group, in every nation around the world. It isn't an isolated problem. What you and others are doing/have been doing and arguing is that X actions by X Muslims reflect the ideas, beliefs and character of all Muslims, when this isn't the case. All of your examples are extreme and horrible examples that you then use to try to paint your own image of all Muslims and of Islam in general. This is why it's bigotry.

I have also noticed and not saying this is the case here, that some Americans and other Westerners have used 'Muslim' and 'Arab' synonymously which a lot of the times these "anti-Islamic," arguments stink of crypto-racism even if the person is or is not counsciously racist towards said group.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You're being sensational here, please, let's not be silly. That isn't my argument at all.

Not be silly, and sensational, ah yes, and exactly then why did you reference;

I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

Kind of a silly and sensational way to look at America.

Or how about this:

Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Inaccurate history, broad brush, and the typical Muslim application of smug superiority because after all Islam, the Ummah, and Muslims are the People of Dar'al Islaml the chosen of Allah sent to chastise the infidel nonbeliever, and punish them for their idolatry and sins against Allah, and bring about the conversion of the Infidel or His destruction.

There is no radical Islam, there is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam,

‘There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his messenger’​

Yes, I was taught that in Hawaii, (when I was younger and seeking), from a Immam, and that there is only, Dar'al Islam, and Dar'al Harb, and it is commanded by Allah to subjugate the lands of Dar'al Harb under the Rule of Dar'al Islam.

You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

 

[countezero]

You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

 

[Giambattista]

You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

They seem to be more closed as a society, yes.

You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

I don't think any country or culture has any room to throw any stones.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

And what point is that? That we of the Dar'al Harb are the evil ones.

No, that you have no room and no authority on which to cast judgement upon other peoples of whom you may very well be misinformed of to begin with.

Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".

That isn't my argument at all.

Really, and just when did this happen?

August 10, 1999, around 10:50 a.m PST.

And if it did, guess what, that man would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, the only incident I can find even close to your example was a Neo Nazi who shot up a Jewish community center , and is now serving a life sentence.

Are you seriously this stupid? The incident you're talking about is the exact same incident that I am talking about, I even listed his name, his group affiliation, his mugshot, I mean, come on.

Kind of a silly and sensational way to look at America.

Given you're history of genocide (see your history with the native peoples of the Americas) and slavery. Not only that if you're going to put things into such senstational and hysterical terms then so shall I.

There is no radical Islam, there is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam,

This is folly.

Yes, I was taught that in Hawaii, (when I was younger and seeking), from a Immam, and that there is only, Dar'al Islam, and Dar'al Harb

Oh, really? Then you should be well aware of the history of the terms now shouldn't you.

and it is commanded by Allah to subjugate the lands of Dar'al Harb under the Rule of Dar'al Islam.

Where? These divisions don't exist in al-Qur'an nor the Sunnah.

You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

You have a pretty inflated and distored opinion of yourself.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

Boo-hoo.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No, that you have no room and no authority on which to cast judgement upon other peoples of whom you may very well be misinformed of to begin with.

And you as a Muslim do?

That isn't my argument at all.

("Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".)​

Sorry, when you post;

Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir
I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

That is exactly what comes through as your rational.

August 10, 1999, around 10:50 a.m PST.

Are you sure It didn't happen, August 11, 1999, around 10:51 a.m PST?

And unlike so many of the Murder Suicide Bombers of Islam, that man was caught, tried and convicted, He wasn't promised 72 virgins in the the after life for his sexual gratification.

Are you seriously this stupid? The incident you're talking about is the exact same incident that I am talking about, I even listed his name, his group affiliation, his mugshot, I mean, come on.

And I have to question you supposed intelligence, as you have just pointed out....

Mug Shot.....caught, tried, and convicted,......no free pass because He was on Jihad, not72 virgins for Him to ravish in the after life......straight to prison for the rest of His life.

Given you're history of genocide (see your history with the native peoples of the Americas) and slavery. Not only that if you're going to put things into such senstational and hysterical terms then so shall I.

There you go again,

("Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".)​

How about the genocide of Hindus by Muslims in East Pakistan/Bangla Desh that was in the 1970tys.

Or how about the genocide being committed in Darfur by Muslims;

http://www.darfurscores.org/darfur

Or the Armenian Genocide, by the Ottoman Empire? again a Muslim committed Genocide against the unbelievers.

Yes, a Muslim could not commit genocide" You are just expounding said what every Muslim thinks. It is alway the kafir who is the problem.

This is folly.

Well? what is folly? Islam is Islam, isn't it, in the end what is the command to all Muslim, from Allah through his messenger Mohammed?

Destroy all who are not Islam, and reject the faith.

Oh, really? Then you should be well aware of the history of the terms now shouldn't you.

That is why I chose them, are you also aware of the term, Kitman or Taqqiya, some rather interesting tenets of Islam.

Where? These divisions don't exist in al-Qur'an nor the Sunnah.[/QOUTE]

Tariq Ramadan;

The doctrinal position of the salafi literalist and their groups in the West, which are in constant communication with scholars based primarily in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, or Syria (mostly through former students of their respective educational institutions), refuses any kind of involvement in a space that is considered non-Islamic. The concepts of dar al-kufr and dar al-harb[36] are still operational and continue to explain the relationship of the salafis with the social environment, which is characterized primarily by isolation and by a literally applied religious practice protected from Western cultural influences.[7]

[Political literalist Salafism] is trenchant, politicized, radical, and opposed to any idea of involvement or collaboration with Western societies, which is seen as akin to open treason. The Hizb al-Tahrir and Al-Muhajirun movements are the best known in Europe, and they call for jihad and opposition to the West (always considered as dar al-harb, the realm of war) by all means.[8]

Ramadan, Tariq. (2004). Western Muslims and the Future of Islam. (pp. 25-26). New York, NY: Oxford University Press.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0e...s+and+the+future+of+islam#v=onepage&q&f=false

You have a pretty inflated and distored opinion of yourself.

No not really, after all I am only a Kaffir, and do not have the Blessing of Allah to chastise and enlighten the unbeliever, as you do.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

And you as a Muslim do?

No, my examples are merely putting things into perspective. Really, I'm pointing out that you're argument is tu quoque.

That is exactly what comes through as your rational.

How on earth is that quote providing rationale for a fictional belief of "Dar al-Islam 'does nothing wrong and Dar al-Harb 'is the only problem'"? It doesn't.

Are you sure It didn't happen, August 11, 1999, around 10:51 a.m PST?

It could have but really this is just pathetic and silly.

And unlike so many of the Murder Suicide Bombers of Islam, that man was caught, tried and convicted, He wasn't promised 72 virgins in the the after life for his sexual gratification.

Come on, the "blow myself up so I can get 72 virgins," shit is a myth. First off suicide is a sin, see relevant hadith here:

"Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”-Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445.

"Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection."-Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73.

The only basis for this lie is a gharib/weak hadith.

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]."Jami' al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562.

Note how it doesn't say anything about suicide. What does al-Qur'an say about suicide?

"You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable."-Al-Baqarah, 2:195, al-Qur'an.

"O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you."-An-Nisa, 4:29, al-Qur'an.

"Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do."-An-Nisa, 4:30, al-Qur'an.

It's haram to kill merely on the account of kufr and it's also haram to kill non-combatants in Islamic Jurisprudence.

"Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat not when facing kufr. For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, or the elderly, nor the blind nor those worshippers who do not fight, rather we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allaah in dealing with the people of the earth, he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him or came under his authority via paying the jizya. This is what he used to instruct his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadeeth of Buraydah."-Ibnul Qayim, "Ahkaam Al Udh-Dhimmah," Vol 1, Page 17.

"About the saying of Allaah: "Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress". (Qur'an 2:190). The killing of women and children is included within this, and so are those who are not involved in warfare."-Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, "An Nawaadir wa'z-Ziyaadaat", Vol 3, Page 57.

"As for intending to attack those who are not fighting such as women, children, the elderly, those in monasteries, churches and the like - then this is not permissible, as long as they neither provide a benefit (to the enemy troops) via their views or strategies nor have committed murder."-Shaykh Abdullaah Al Basaam, "Tawdeeh ul Ahkaam bin Buluughil Maraam", Vol 6, Page 385.

"As for those who are not from the people who help and fight, such as women, children, the worshipper, the elderly, the blind, the disabled and the likes then they are not to be killed according to the majority of the Ulama' unless the person participates in fighting (against the Muslims) with speech or action. Even though some Ulama' permitted the killing of all merely on account of kufr, except for women and children which become for the Muslims. The first opinion (that non-combatants are not to be killed or fought against at all) is the most correct opinion, because fighting is only against whoever fights us when we want to manifest the deen of Allaah, just as Allaah says: "Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress". (Qur'an 2:190). In the Sunan is a Hadith from the Prophet that he passed by a woman who had been killed within a battle and the people had gathered around the body. The Prophet said: "This is not one who should be fought against", and sent the men away saying to one of them: "Tell Khalid not to kill children or workers". Also reported from him is that he said: "Do not kill a frail elderly man or a young child or a woman."-Ibn Taymiyah, "As Siyaasah Ash Shariyah", Page 177.

"The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever."-Ibn Taymiyah, "As Saarim Al Maslool 'Alaa Shaatim ir Rasool", Page 104.

"Killing a women merely on account of kufr is not permissible and we do not know that it was allowed to kill any disbelieving women at any time whatsoever. Rather, the Qur'an and the sequence of its revelation prove that it is not allowed at all, because the first verses revealed about fighting: "Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allaah is competent to give them victory. They are those who have been evicted from their homes without right". (Qur'an 22:39 and 49). So it was allowed for the believers to fight in defending themselves and to retaliate against those who evicted them from their homes and prevented them from tawheed of Allaah and His worship, and women are not included from those who do this. Then it was prescribed for them to fight absolutely and this is explained in His saying: "Fight in the way of Allaah against those who fight you". (Qur'an 2:190). So those people who are not people of combat are not permitted to be fought against."-Ibn Taymiyah "As Saarim Al Maslool", Page 101.

I'm begining to doubt your "teaching," of Islam.

Mug Shot.....caught, tried, and convicted,......no free pass because He was on Jihad, not72 virgins for Him to ravish in the after life......straight to prison for the rest of His life.

I never said this didn't happen. Also, again this whole suicide = 72 virgins in paradise crap is a myth. I would also question you're understanding of jihad.

Or how about the genocide being committed in Darfur by Muslims

Way to distort and misportray said event. Muslims (non-Arab) are also being killed.

Or the Armenian Genocide, by the Ottoman Empire? again a Muslim committed Genocide against the unbelievers.

Again, you're misportraying historical events. Come on, it's clear that you're "interpretations," of historical events is crazed and biased.

Yes, a Muslim could not commit genocide" You are just expounding said what every Muslim thinks. It is alway the kafir who is the problem.

You're misconstruing my arguments and I am willing to bet that this is being willfully done as well. This also isn't my argument at all, my examples again are merely putting things into perspective and demonstrating how your argument is tu quoque.

Destroy all who are not Islam, and reject the faith.

Where? Prove it.

That is why I chose them, are you also aware of the term, Kitman or Taqqiya, some rather interesting tenets of Islam.

Wow, you really are playing from the American right-wing nutjob playbook here now aren't you. Not suprising though really but you're only demonstrating your ignorance. I would also question your understanding of the terms.

Tariq Ramadan;

Do you even know whom are the 'Salafis' are and what they believe? It's strange that you would bring this as evidence that the Dar al-Islam/Dar al-Harb dichotomy exists in any real sense. It's also not surprising that you're "evidence," is niether from al-Qur'an or the Sunnah because it's not mentioned there anywhere. It's use is only by later Islamic scholars. This is an artificial division. Infact the term 'dar al-harb' really has only been applied to parties whom were actually/literally at war with Muslims by the Islamic scholars. What about dar al-sulh? Dar al-hudna? Dar al-dawa? Dar al-amn? Again, I question your understanding of the terms.

No not really, after all I am only a Kaffir, and do not have the Blessing of Allah to chastise and enlighten the unbeliever, as you do.

Oh, please, give me a break, can you even take yourself seriously?

 

[kmguru]

Well he was an american agent to fight the russians

America gave him tools and financial motivation to fight USSR

he gave his army religious motivations to fight with him


but what motivations made him turn to america and the west ??

If he is the islam sword , would in it be more at the point that he fights israel or continue fighting russia , as in muslims eyes they occupy thier lands and kill their children in palestine and cheshnia ,

conclusion he is not fighting to protect the muslims , does he just want to kill people so he goes to heaven ???

Or is the terrorists network large enough now that they want to kill every other religion on the planet ??

The truth no one wants to hear at the opposing end of the opinions is what is portrayed in the movie "Charlie Wilson's war". After the soviets left, we left too with Afghanistan is shambles. There was no plan to rebuild the country even if we promised by the very fact we were there.

Everything went downhill from there. We still can not seem to do nation building - even after spending zillions of dollars.

 

[Giambattista]

Bin Laden didn't have to turn to hit America, he was sitting right there at his hi-tech computer console running all those satellites which coordinate his operations from his base deep underground. He hit a few keys, and the towers came down.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No, my examples are merely putting things into perspective. Really, I'm pointing out that you're argument is tu quoque.

What perspective? Muslim vs: Kaffar.

Oh, please, give me a break, can you even take yourself seriously?

I have given you a break, now how about you not taking your self so seriously, Bin Lid, is exactly what He is a Muslim, a Whabist, who you seemly wish to justify, by only looking at the sins of the Kaffar.

Yes, "Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" it is incapable of it's own Religious/political agenda, it is so pure that it is incapable of the commission of Genocide, because it is the one and only true religion.

I am only quoting those of Islam who have reveled what Islam is, and it intent, and method determined to be acceptable.

I have quote from , Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam, and what they reveal in their thoughts and writings, though i strongly suspect that these writings and thought were never intended to be revealed outside the circles of debate of Islam, because those thoughts, decision, and rulings, reveal the dark and seamy side of Islam.

And before you go there, yes in Christianity there was a dark side for centuries, I am a Protestant, a Fundamentalist Protestant, and the fundamental command of The true Profit of God, Jesus is to offer salvation, to be freely accepted or rejected by the person, and from that point on, no sanction is acceptable against that person for rejecting the Faith, be it as in Islam every thing from invasion/Death/Dhimmiture........there in no adverse stricture that we are allowed to impose.

It is not the same in Islam, and that is very apparent in it's practice of Dhimmitude, Jizhya, which is still practiced across the Muslim World.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

I find it funny that you speak with such confidence about Islam and are so convinced of your own assertions, yet you didn't even address the evidence I have provided. How odd.

What perspective? Muslim vs: Kaffar.

No, my point is obvious and I have already stated the reason for my examples none of which subscribes to this 'Muslim-Kaffir' dichotomy. How about you address what I'm actually saying and not these fictional arguments you keep spitting out, hmm? Or can you not? Can you not address the evidences and arguments I'm giving? To inconvienant? I bet.

I could very easily just say that you are blaming everything on Muslims. You even tried to blame the shooting of a Jewish School in LA on Muslims when it was a neo-Nazi American whom actually did it. Funny, how you never tried to defend your intial "theory," of the event. Is he still Muslim to you?

I have given you a break

Really? Oh, thank you.

Bin Lid, is exactly what He is a Muslim, a Whabist, who you seemly wish to justify, by only looking at the sins of the Kaffar.

I have already stated numerous times that it's this Wahhabi/Salafi (Wahhabism arose in the 18th century and Salafism too is a relatively recent ideaology) ideaology which is the problem. I as a Shi'a (as would be any and every Shi'a) am against the Wahhabis/Salafis and their ideology. You are also totally misconstruing all of my arguments. I also don't support bin Laden in the least nor am I trying to defend him per se. I do however believe that he could very well be just a CIA/US puppet.

Yes, "Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" it is incapable of it's own Religious/political agenda, it is so pure that it is incapable of the commission of Genocide, because it is the one and only true religion.

I never said this nor could anything I have said be suggestive of this either. Again, stop fucking pulling shit out of your ass and actually address the shit that I am presenting. Or is that possible for you? Is it possible for you to discuss Islam and Muslims and topics related to both without resorting to such intellectual dishonesty and bigotry? Or am I to assume this is how it's going to be? I present counter-arguments and then you try to misportray it as "Muslims are at war with the world and single living thing in it to the kaffir to the lonely field mouse."

I am only quoting those of Islam who have reveled what Islam is, and it intent, and method determined to be acceptable.

I am quoting al-Qur'an, the hadiths and works written by Islamic scholars. You're not quoting shit. Funny, how I'm a Muslim whom is quoting Islamic scripture and works written by Islamic scholars, but of course this isn't the "real," Islam. I must be lying, right? Because that's what we Arabs, oh, I'm sorry, I mean Muslims, do right?

I have quote from , Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam

Where? I don't see shit.

I am a Protestant, a Fundamentalist Protestant, and the fundamental command of The true Profit of God,

Oh, how could I have not have guessed.

If only I could follow the true "profit," of God.

It's clear to me that you know jack shit about Islam or Muslims.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Evidence? I have also presented evidence.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Evidence? I have also presented evidence.

Where? The school shooting link and the information copied from said link is the only thing that I have seen. I have not seen any quotes from anyone nor have I seen verses from al-Qur'an nor has any hadith been posted either.

 

[kororoti]

"

I think his primary motivation has less to do with U.S. policy, and more to do with his attempt to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America. He knows it would be much more difficult for the House of Saud to survive without American oil money, and his goal is basically revenge. He also would prefer to set up a goverment in his home country based on strict Wahhabism, so that his nation can live under a 12th century form of government. The ludicrous thing about this is that his family gained all of their money due to their connection and support of the House of Saud, so the hipocracy is certainly running strong.

It's like the guy's just too dumb to realize that oil is inherently valuable. If the USA dropped off the map tomorrow, Europe, China, ...and basically every major player except Russia (because they have their own oil), would line up eagerly to take our place.

Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Isolated incidents don't mean anything, especially isolated illegal acts. You could just as easily argue that the USA is predominantly made up of pedophiles by citing a string of examples of cases wherein a child was molested.

None of these things that occurred were legal. If people weren't prosecuted, it is only because the evidence wasn't clear enough to overcome the presumption of innocence that all citizens are granted.

There have been incidents of slavery amongst illegal immigrants working in agriculture. The Immokalee region in southern Florida, which grows most of the tomatoes eaten in the United States during the cold months, has had many cases of slavery. Since 1997, several prosecutions have resulted in over 1,000 slaves being freed.[137]

In 2002, the U.S. Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate[141] that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation.[142] {wiki}​

50,000 slaves per year? The USA population is 250 million. If 100,000 of those people participated in the slave trade (2 each to smuggle 50,000 sex slaves into the country) that would mean 0.04% of Americans participate in slavery. Hardly a majority.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Ja'far at-Tahir, guess what I do know jack shit about Islam, from it's foundlings to it's acts jihad and terror today.

It is in the news, it is in the history books, it is in the writings of the Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam.

it's also haram to kill non-combatants in Islamic Jurisprudence.

Then explain all of the suicide bombing in Iraq? Afghanistan? around the world, The women and children murdered in the markets, on pilgrimage, aid workers only trying to feed the starving, heal the sick, and comfort the dying.

August 29 2003: One or two car bombs, detonated by suicide bombers, explode outside the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf. Between 85 and 125 people were killed, including the leader of the nation's Shia community Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim.

October 27 2003: Four or five suicide car bombings rock Baghdad, killing 30-40 people including two US soldiers. The deadliest attack was on the HQ of the International Committee of the Red Cross, where a suicide bomber driving an ambulance killed 12 and wounded 20.

February 10 2004: At least 55 people are killed in car bombing outside a police station in Iskandariyah, south of Baghdad.

March 2 2004: In the deadliest coordinated attacks since the fall of Saddam Hussein, a series of explosions killed 181 Shiites celebrating the Ashoura festival in Baghdad and Karbala. 49 Iranian pilgrims were among the victims of the bombings, at least four of which were suicide attacks.

June 17 2004: A suicide car bomber driving a white 4x4 detonated his vehicle amongst a crowd of 300 jobless young men queuing at the gates of an Iraqi army base in central Baghdad. 35 people were killed and 138 injured..........................

........December 3 2004: A van with four suicide bombers on board drove into a Shi'ite mosque in Baghdad, killing 14 civilians who had gathered for morning prayers.

December 19 2004: A suicide bomber in Najaf killed at least 51 people when he targeted a funeral procession near the Imam Ali shrine. A suicide car bomb near a bus stop in Kerbala killed at least 14 people. It occurred near the twin shrines of Hussein and Abbas, and also near the home of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.


Ja'far at-Tahir, you say killing innocent non combatants is haram, suicide is Haram, then explain th eabove actions bu Muslim Believers of Islam.

January 26 2010: A suicide car bomber kills 21 and injures 85 when he strikes at an Iraqi crime lab in the capital

(Where are the Combatants in this attack? only combatant, the one who committed suicide, a Muslim Terror bomber)

February 1 2010: Baghdad bombing.
A female suicide bomber detonated among a group of pilgrims making their journey to Karbala to mark Arbaeen as they walked through Baghdad, killing 54 and injuring 117

(Where are the Combatants in this attack? only combatant, the one who committed suicide, a Muslim Terror bomber)

February 3 2010: A suicide car bomber detonates in a crowd of pilgrims making their way to the Imam Hussein shrine in the city of Karbala, killing 10 and injuring 50

February 5 2010: Two suicide car bombers leave 40 dead and 140 injured when they detonated on either side of a bridge across which pilgrims were making their way in and out of Karbala.

February 21 2010: A suicide bomber trying to enter a mosque detonated an explosives-laden vest after being shot at by guards, killing one person and wounding six near Tikri

March 4 2010: Two suicide bombers detonated in different areas of the capital killing 17 and injuring 35. It is known that polling stations were the target in both of these suicide attacks.

I thought suicide was Haram?

You speak of Islam as one thing but the new videos present Islam as a whole other thing.

May 10: Main article 10 May 2010 Iraq attacks
Two suicide car bombers drove into a fabrics factory as workers were ending there shift in the town of Hilla,[24] as bystanders and emergency services rushed in to help the wounded, another suicide bomber detonated explosives causing a third explosion.[25] The attacks left 45 dead and 140 wounded.[24] Two suicide bombers, one wearing a vest laden with explosives and the other driving a car, killed at least 13 people and wounded 40 in a crowded Iraqi marketplace southeast of Baghdad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

Yes story after story from Wiki, with citation, about Isalm, about the death and destruction brought about in attacking not only non combatants, but Muslim non combatants.

Or go here and follow the trail of death and destruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

Yet in story after story when U.S. Troops are accused of murder, rape, what ever, they are investigated, and if evidence is found, charges are brought,, and if that evidence holds up in court, they are convicted, and they are sentenced.

Can you show me the same of Islam?